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#338543 05/29/2018 05:20 PM
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Baz69 Online Content OP
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I'm presuming this it what this sword is,? I believe the silver one's are for Justice officials?.
I'm aware that the knot is not conventional for this sword but it seems to have been on their a long time, also the leather strap that is on the scabbard is that correct, I've not seen a long strap like that in this configuration, maybe it's not on the scabbard correctly, can anybody help with thoughts on the knot and strap.

Gary

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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A little bird told me that the leather strap, sword hanger and knot would have been used on an army sword so if that is the case is there a possibility that the original owner was drafted into the army after his prison officials service, was allowed to keep his sword with the addition of the accoutrements or is that a little to far fetched. I'm fully aware that the accoutrements could have been added post war probably a higher chance of that than the change of service.

Gary

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Baz69, what you show to us seems to be (from the pics) a very nice conditioned prison officials saber. As you said correct, the silver hilted are for justice officials.
What material is the hilt? These sabers are (naturally) faked today but due to several features I believe to see in the pics your saber seems to be a period one. A special treat is the undamaged grip and grip wire. Nowadays you do not see this too often.
The long hanger is proper for a lot of sabers like army and also for these (prison, justice) ones. The loop now- around the scabbard should be fixed on a beneath-uniform-belt (sorry, I cannot remember the correct expression in the moment).
A saber is either worn on the long hanger OR on the teardrop hanger.
The portepee is imho not correct. Justice and prison officials did have a row of different portepees and troddels. The proper one for this prison official saber woud be the silver one with green intermissions (prison would have gold with red intermissions). Ranks not authorized to wear the saber would wear the bayonet with different troddels.
Finally I would recommend a close inspection if the surface is ok and no postwar golden laquer which occasionally happens when a saber has lost it?s original finish. You hardly can check this in photographs, just in hands.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Baz69, your post did come while I did write mine.
No, the troddel now fixed on your saber is strictly an army bajonet troddel for NCOs. All prison/justice NCOs entitled to wear a saber would also wear the officer s portepee with this saber.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Baz69 Online Content OP
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Hi Wotan

Thank you for your attention, the hilt I believe is of a lightweight material, the gilt whilst it is good in the pictures does show some wear when you see it close up, I'm happy that the finish is all original, I think its just held up very well on this sword. I think I'll look for a nice original knot for this piece, if anybody has one then let me know.

Gary

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Even when the hilt shows some traces of wearing and time it is a very rare saber and, after what you told, an original one! Congratulations.

I am sorry, I did confuse something. A portepee silver/green naturally would be for custom. Justice and prison, both have mainly golden strands and prison with added green strands, justice with added red strands.
Here a pic of the proper portepee for your saber (prison) with cellon/silk strands. Portepees have been also in metal/silk strands available. Especially remarkable are also the golden strands on the strap. And take care not to get a tarnished (golden hue) custom portepee!

Regards,

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wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Beautiful saber! The knot on your saber as already stated is for a Heer NCO bayonet but I have seen them on Heer swords also. Wither this was allowed or not I do not know. The knot on yours may have been there since the war as I have seen all kinds of knots on all kinds of swords and daggers. I believe the GI?s stuck whatever knot they could find on them just because it looked good. It?s going to be tough and expensive finding a Justice Official knot, good luck!

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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Wotan

Thank you for the clarification it really was very helpful, just trying to find a colour picture of the knot is difficult so I thank you for providing me with this lovely example, I'll have to keep my eyes out for one. What do you think of this knot, it came with the Richard Herder tag which I cannot remove without cutting the tie on the strap, I do know that Helmut Weitze sold one of these not long ago as a variation Prison officials(without tag), I do not know whether this knot relates to the prison service myself but it does feel and look original, the weave is nice and tight on the ball, it has an aged look and smell to it, I didn't pay a great deal for it, I brought it mainly for the tag which is one I have never seen before.

FSMC
Thank you also for the clarification.

Gary

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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Here is a modern knot of this type, this is just for clarification on the differences between modern and original of the same type of sword knot.

Gary

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@ FSMC, first let me welcome you to the forum! It is always nice to see new members! Imho an NCO (who would be entitled to wear the certain attached knot on a bayonet never would wear it on a saber as on sabers he would be entitled to wear the "officer?s portepee". I do own now about 1800 period "wearing" photographs with a lot of oddities between them but up to now I have not one (or seen one) with this NCO troddel (NOT portepee) on a saber.

@Baz69, there are so much portepees/troddels we do know few or nothing about their real function. Nearly as much as these about we do know it. I have not seen such a portepee you do show here. I personally doubt it has any connection with justice/prison. Nevertheless yours is a nice one especially with this Herder tag. We know that several firms did sell hangers, bags and more together with their edged weapons so your combo does not seem out of possibility. I would not ruin this interesting combo by tearing it apart just to get a portepee which is -in my opinion- not the correct one. It might be a long shot to get the proper portepee but it will come by someday, we collectors just have to be calm!

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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Hi Wotan
I had my doubts, the similarities end really with the strap so I did not really have any aspirations that it might be a variation, as you say there are many unknown portepee, this is just another of them, it could well be that it was made or at least distributed by the Richard Herder firm. I'm sure a nice prison officials knot will turn up someday, patience is the key to all collecting and I'll enjoy the hunt in the meantime.

Thanks for your insights.

Gary

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To Gary and wotan thank you for sharing and a very interesting discussion. Best Regards, Fred

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Gary. Here is my Prison Official sabre with knot. The hilt is lightweight. The maker is Clemen u. Jung

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For sure a beautiful example complete with knot smile smile as Wotan mentioned sometimes it can take a lot of patience waiting for the right item(s) to add to your collection. For myself years later still having "holes" where I want to have the item. Something that caused me to drift for a while into some other areas. But - "at the end of the day" it has also caused be to be very thankful for what I have found that would be hard to replicate now if I was just beginning. Best Regards, Fred

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Gentlemen, I put my magnificent sword .... WKC No. 1047.
I hope to contribute in this thread.
Thank you
Toni

[Linked Image]

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A fine Justice Official's sabre by WKC you have posted. I have an unissued portepee for this model in my collection. See attached picture.

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Hello, Mr. Barry Brown
It is original? if so ... I'm looking for Porteeep for my saber and for my teno Tropa ...
Can you pass me prices?
Thank you
Toni

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Originally Posted by palante125
Hello, Mr. Barry Brown
It is original? if so ... I'm looking for Porteeep for my saber and for my teno Tropa ...
Can you pass me prices?
Thank you
Toni


Mine is not for sale Toni. Good luck in finding a portepee for your nice sabre. Regards.

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Barri, thank you for evaluating this piece as it deserves. It is the ferrari of the prison swords.
Toni


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