UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum TK rings were cast or die struck?

Mike
I also checked mine and a magnet does not react either.
I am no expert, but would like to make a comment if I may. I looked at the engraving and a pic of the so called "inner band" pic on WAF and the engraving depth on an original ring is deeper than the thickness of the "inner band".
That leads me to this question, What would the purpose of the "inner band" be then? Since the engraving goes through the "inner band" it certainly would not be to make engraving easier.
I do not subscribe to the "inner band" theory. Ron

Well I do not subscribe to it either Ron for a number of reasons. Primarily because it is an unnecessary step that even in the face of German over engineering still does not make sense. I own a very nice private purchase skull ring that has a hollow skull of course and has interior engraving really very similar to Gahr engraving. It has a date of October 1935. We know how these kinds of rings were made and what they were made of. Engraved In the flat or in the round, there is no second, separate inner band, of course. Antonio himself did in fact make a passionate point for engraving in the round as it pertained to a cast as a round ring theory. There was no inner band necessary there either. COULD there be an inner band, is there a bevel or line evident on many rings? Yep. Both of mine have what appears to be a bevel or an inner line. But is it necessarily two rings, or a ring and an inner ring? I sincerely doubt it, but I am willing to entertain it as an interesting observation, which is in fact, the only thing we are studying here. Hey look what I can see here in this utterly ambiguous image is completely subjective and is not an scientific inquiry by any stretch of the imagination, but it does lead to some entertaining videos and neat-o magnified pictures.

Really proud of you guys. We are taking is slow ans making a tiny bit of progress. True we don't have a microscope nor paying for expensive testing which would be nice. Tonys done some good testing. But what does it all mean?

So, I would say the majority of the material used on the HR is silver..

Tin. Is there a tin inner band in there. wouldn't a x-ray show it clearly? Did I miss that over there? Does anyone understand it clearly and saw the test that showed the actual tin band? And, if is is thicker than AL foil there should be some kind of reaction to the magnet test.. It's got to be thick enough to be some kind of supporting structure [?] What is it doing in there? Tony does not explain it anywhere I read,,maybe I missed it . Guys do you se anything about it, what it does? and how big it is?

Last,, guess its a matter of opinion. For me a few thousand rings IS mass produced.. Andy,,or anyone with Dons book. Could you please post the guesstimate of how many were made.. I'm pretty sure it was a few thousand!

So now maybe we can address the one piece? 3 piece?The u-tube part 2 is supposed to be showing an authentic ring. They claim it was made in the round, engraved in the round and a hollow skull soldered on. Not really understanding what part 2 is about. They show a mess of a ring. sure looks cast. Don't think in part 2 Tin is mentioned. BUT they do state that size ring would not need a seam and does not have one.

The engraving,,well he's right. They engrave round rings all the time not. So flat or round it could be engraved fine either way so no problem there..

What I do have a problem is: IF you take the same year HR in part 2,,and note the year . they claim that size doesn't , never had a seam..

OK then,,why do other HRs the same exact year, same exact size and they have seams. In fact they all have seams. Now what? I think Tony explains it as they were resized,,then resized back to original size ... That doesn't make sense sorry.. OR again I'm not understanding his explanation.
So far all authentic HRs have a seam. You might not be able to see it but its there.

ChrisSScollector. You have a theory about eye sockets and non hollow skulls.. I don't believe the skulls are hollow. I was shown years ago 2 authentic skulls. Not hollow,,kind of shell shaped but a nice flat where it could be soldered to the band.... Chris, I invite you here to maybe help us understand a bit better without all the rudeness, sarcasm, etc.

And again I also invite anyone else to address what is written in this post...., Thanks again guys,,,Gaspare

Member Ric was kind enough to send this:

14K to 20K,,,,20,000,,,twenty thousand!!

Guy,, I would say most of the PP rings we collect didn't hit this number of production! Tony,,the HR WAS a mass produced ring. It just wasn't available for retail like our PP rings , meaning you couldn't buy one,,,but for sure even at half that number and it would be classified as 'mass produced'..
Thanks again Ric.!!

So you are saying that an original HR may very well have that inner ring? Also, Antonio..you are confusing Ric's word "composition" with the word "construction". ,,And at the end of the day, how do you know that ,,,,,How do you know that some original HR's might have a hollow skull, and other original HR's ,,,,
- This has become so murky now that who knows what's a real ring and what isnt....


Other than 2 or 3 others , [one only collects SS cloth] Most are confused.. After so many pages and accusations etc. what has really come about there?.. For me ONE thing,,we are not sure the rings were die pressed.

There has NOT been a method or even a theory explained how they are made... There are contradictions everywhere.... No explanation about the part #2 ring. IT has no seam and claims it never did.. Yet there are rings the same date and size that are authentic and they all have a seam...

Where is the proof they were made 'in the round'? - These are not for Tony to answer...... There's like 30 something pages of confusion there. I want to hear from others, either pro what? or Con..
There ARE guys that know and can refute Tonys findings but they choose to stay out of it. I've had emails saying he's hurt the HR market more than anyone in its history.

I don't see how,,nothing has been explained, nothing has been proven. TRUE,,no proof has been provided the rings were pressed. OK, yes I concede that myself.. But on his theories,there is no proof either.
Members here,,any comments? , especially from this page and the page before where things got paraphrased... ANY and ALL comments are welcome......

you know it was also claimed that with a press/die you couldn't get complex angles or difficult designs.. That isn't true. while most die cutters made the simplest die so things would be easy there were complex ones
. Rings that did take more that one pressing. But never the less these complicated designs were tough, with tough angles that would make you wonder how they were made.. This bothered Tony. He had written that on the 2nd pattern especially the curved band would be too difficult to have it come out right,,,that is couldn't be pressed, had to be a casting.. And he could be right,,maybe it was some kind of unorthodox casting,,but there were dies that did the same..

This die from 1927 would make a way more complicated design than the HR. Yet was available for years before and afterward. Just wasn't done much because simple was better. Less waste, unskilled labor etc. etc. but the technology was there certainly..

Also,, about the lines that look like a inner separate band. ,,,,and again,,maybe there was,,we just haven't seen any proof yet..

But it could simply be from the rear/inner supporting die! Some had smooth insides,,some had the reverse of the cartouche design. The inner line could just be from something like that. Either pressed,,or cast,,,but it doesn't automatically mean there is another band incorporated in to the design..

What was probably the worst was a member there asked a very valid question. He was dismissed out of hand, insulted, and his theory wasn't even considered by Tony. He just insulted and tried to make a fool out of the member. Lucky the member was a experienced in metal work, and with the HR in general for years and took it all in stride. People get frustrated when they can't get their point across,,when there isn't proof and he can't understand why others don't see it his way.. I'm open to it ALL. Other than some testing that showed materials about the solder , there still isn't proof about anything else.

The HR was a mass produced ring.. The HR was mainly made out of silver. Was it pressed? don't know. Was it cast? don't know. He shows terrible detail shots that look like it was from the worst of castings I've seen. . Made in one piece? Please where's the beef so to speak. There's some sort of explanation but its not absolute...


This is a 1928
die set for both
types of reverse/
inners etc.

G.,

after an impressive waste of time and money Antonio scientific tests proved nothing.

I can tell you none of my 8 Honor rings show a double band construction, none of them stick a magnet, none of them show an hollow skull e to end all of them show a nice seam.

As Hapur rightly said : "anyone can film through a microscope.... the ability to analyse and reach conclusions is not sold with the microscope"

That's his true limit, he is not able to distinguish a die struck ring from a cast one and the purpose of tons of pics by playing with microscope is to hide his lack of experience.

Ric

hi members
i repeat like rick not one of my honor rings have a tin ring on the inside also all my skulls are not hollow they are solid silver its just a shame and a waist of every bodys time including his to get squat out of it also that some one with the money does all this research and comes up with nothing plus buying a very expensive miroscope then his attutude with outher members asking opinions then e mailing the person back and say his opinion is right and the person asking is wrong wow glad we are on the tail end here perhaps we can go on to outher rings that we collect private purchase rings and rings that we never seen before thanks every body have a great day god bless andy militarynut

To me Andy:
It is truly unfortunate that others with extensive knowledge like yours are unwilling to get involved and say what has to be said. We all know who they are and their reasons for remaining silent is baffling
This guy probably wouldn't agree the rings were made using dies even if someone produced an original set.* I fail to understand exactly what his motive is here unlike when another came up with the "rings were cast in the round in rubber molds" theory.

* There has been a persistent rumor for many years that Roger Steele did have a set of original Gahr dies and they are now in possession of another dealer, Whether this is in fact true may never be known.

-
Jim,,,, R.S, owned these infamous dies:

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/~germand2/ubbthreads.php/topics/338738/2.html

He also owned molds taken from/made from authentic H. Goring s rings. 2 that were known. He was credited with all sorts of fantasy pieces too. Dagger parts ,medals, jewelry etc. Along with selling N.O.S. dagger parts , having flags made from the original makers etc.
Whats true and whats BS,,,,don't think anyone is around that could tell us anymore....

. But getting back to the HR.. Well there also isn't anyone left alive that could enlighten us, nor did any tooling survive. I have heard for years that a piece of the bands tooling survived and was badly damaged but as much about it ,,it was never produced . So maybe that is a myth too..

We 've been having some good rational discussion about the HR here. Some solid facts - the silver content,,,- the amount produced,,,etc. Maybe you guys could post the inner bands of yours [even if they are on their own topic] and WE can address the inner band multi piece theory.. Much thanks so far guys.!!

I am trying to get a good shot of my inner band to post. Ron

Gaspare
See if these are good enough. I can tell you that nothing is magnetic and there is no inner band. Ron

Ron:
Good pictures. And that's exactly what the inner view of any TK ring I've ever handled looks like from above and below. Now note the light area surrounding the band in Ron's photos. IMO: Under different lighting/viewing conditions this can very well make it look like there are two separate bands. I think that's exactly what's being shown in some of the photos over on WAF. Whether this is inadvertent or being done purposefully to deceive remains to be seen. Stay tuned I guess!
Jim

I agree. Lighting can be deceptive and can make lines appear where they are not. I believe Mr. Scalpini is using certain images to support his theory/agenda.
Ron

This belongs to a former member here.. He is on WAF. His name is Chris and is a SS collector.....

These are photos of his ring, and has given us permission to post them here on this topic.. IF I remember correct it was gotten directly from a Vet..

Now these last 2 rings posted here ,,Tankers is a early pattern. The 2nd , Chris's ring looks to be a 2nd pattern.. Ffor me 2 different rings. Yes they have the same emblems on them and the same engraving on them. But the shapes are different. The Early has a flatter type band. The 2nd has a rounded outer band..

In both these photos I can see a seam. A little tough but they are there.. I also can kind of see a line going around on the inside. I don't see where or how that would mean there is a 2nd band there.. Tanker,,, Chris,,,,thanks SO much for the photos.. Could I bother you for just one or 2 more.. Try and get a photo of the inner band. Not a birds eye view. But on a angle, so you can see most of the flat inner. Doesn't matter if there is engraving or not. We we are looking to see IF the line is visible on your rings... Thanks SO much...

Chris does state he doesn't see anything inside that would believe him that there is another band involved in its manufacture. He also states there IS a seam,,and he tried the magnet test and got nothing.. Thanks Chris..... ,G.

No problem Gaspare . Here are a couple from ones I previously posted on my thread. On actual inspection, I see no trace of an inner band. What appears like any is just an illusion with angles/shadows. A very difficult subject to phohotgraph!
Ron

Here's 2 more of Rons famous ring.. One of the best out there,,certainly in the top 10 or even top 5!!..

I see a seam, I don't see evidence if 2 or 3 piece band.. and he mentions the magnet dies not attract.1

Always goo to see the ring Ron! , thanks for being part of this..

Thanks Gaspare
The top 2 are with a flash and bottom ones are not.
Yes, there is a seam and no evidence of an inner ring band and definetly non magnetic I tried to take without flash and on a cloudy overcast sky to prevent shadows but a very difficult item to photograph:)

Look hard enough you will see anything. Tried to really show these so called inner bands so I took these 2 well known, certified, documented original rings downstairs and snapped pics with the light from my downstairs fridge at night. Used a basic photo editor magnifying tool and voila here you go a conspiracy theory is born. What do you see in this cloud? What does this inkblot mean to you? That is all we have been playing over this silliness. There could be a metallurgical difference between the inner and outer bands sure. What could cause that? I do not know but probably much much more than one thing. Anyhow one ring is a 30s, one is a 40s. Likely obvious by the early vs later ring differences we are all aware of by now. Some may say they see inner rings with different metal qualities. I have realized these angles shadows lines impressions could be just about anything. But no gahr jewelers are alive today to answer these questions, and we did not work there either so let us call speculations and observations just that. It is a matter of opinion and as I said on the other forum- if you own a real ring, you know it.. And It is awesome.

In my experience you can forget about using a magnet to test for Tin. Tin is just as magnetic as silver or aluminium.
Most "Tin cans" are actually steel with a thin tin layer on top to make it non-hardazous for food.

Well you learn something every day.. Trig you are right in a way.. a quote from scientific american:

"SCIENCE PHYSICS MAGNETISM
Q:
Is Tin Magnetic or Non-Magnetic?
A:
QUICK ANSWER
Tin is magnetic in the literal sense of the word. The effect is so weak that it could be considered non-magnetic for all practical purposes. It is called a paramagnetic substance scientifically, but it has such a weak effect that it can be compared to a diamagnetic element."

OK so in its pure form is isn't strongly magnetic. BUT,,,in the 1920s, 30s, 40s. when you bought tin it was automatically alloyed with a Ferrous material! IF you were buying Tin for airshafts you did not have to buy 2 different metals and make your tin ductwork!
SO, Trigg are are right in a way. But If you bought a sheet if tin to make something it was magnetic.. Weird yes..

We don't know what tony found in his tests as I think they were related to solder. The band?,, I don't know?

Mike,,thanks for the photos. Chris, Tanker too..

IF, IF we just had a ground dug HR that was broken in half, or even a cut in it.. Tony has a lot of good points. but presented very confusing. The guys that don't believe in his theories,,well they are going to need a more clear presentation..
I don't know what was proved on WAF other than the HR might not be pressed. No method has been offered as how the HR has been made.. Not real proof that it was cast in one piece? and if it was then what about the Tin inner.. What would that be in there for?. How thick was it? Was it Tin bought from a commercial source therefore Ferrous and magnetic? So many questions and I'm sure you guys have your own..........,G.

My neighbor the math and science guy! We made a basic electromagnet with some wire a nail and a battery and tested both rings. Non magnetic. Just FYI

I have no bone in this fight, I am an edged weapons collector, but I am interested in manufacturing techniques.

The way Antonio is presenting his case on WAF is most confusing.
His presentation is not very scientifically done, with poor descriptions of his testing and he is not saying much about his test method and what inaccuracies can occur for such tests.

His findings on the "inner band" is interesting in the fact that there is a different composition of silver there than on the rest of the ring.
But there is (at least for me) just more questions arising about the way these rings were tested.
-Were all rings tested at the same exact spot on the "inner band"?
-Were more than one spot tested on each rings "inner band"?

My questions come up because the chemical composition he shows on the tested rings are so very different from each other. From 14% to 64% silver. Tin from 22% to 85%.
Are these values consistent on all of the "inner band", from the back of the scull to the rear?
For me these results are just showing that this is probably not a physical "Inner band" that has been made and in some way added to the silver ring. It is more like a smear of tin, uneven on the inside..?? Maybe the solder when finalizing the rings in the seam behind the scull run on the inside of the ring?
If it was a seperate inner band added, I would assume the alloy was more or less identical in composition of silver and tin over time..

At least for me, until a lot more test data with accurate descriptions of how the data were extracted is presented, I do not believe in an "inner band", not yet.

I would agree with you of course. Making the claims he did as he did served only to becloud rather than clarify anything about these rings. Most unfortunate. No matter.. we move forward!

I also agree. and Trigger appreciate you coming aboard here..,
I mentioned this to him here, there, and in private emails. That he would have a mess on his hands and confused members there...

Here. ok, we're no scientists, no super microscopes. But we have some guys experienced members. Members who have studied the HR, Members who have done their own independent. work and have their own findings. some have chosen to keep these findings private for whatever reason, but I respect it..

There is also a problem most don't know about. John P. had many HRs,,over 10. Well it has been discussed that one if not 2 were not authentic. John hated CoAs, hated paying for them, hated that there was just this one 'guru'. So what happened to these 1 or 2 HRs?! His whole collection has been sold, someone has them...

Trigg, Mike, Tanker, Jimbo, Andy, Evgeniy, Hapur etc etc etc.and you others,,, all have valid questions,,and no coherent answers.. Please keep these discussions going, your questions,, your theories, all of it because in the end its this site that is starting to make some sense,,and in the end run will make the most common sense.. Thanks so much...........,


Well keep plugging away at it and if anyone needs help resizing a photo or anything my email is posted ..

I am going to stop posting on the WAF thread. IF I post anymore, it will be here. It has become obvious that no matter what is said on WAF, it will fall on deaf ears. It is unfortunate that Mr Scalpini has muddied the waters so much that future collectors will have doubts/fears about collecting such a historical item.

hi ron
nice to hear again please nobody is mudding the waters not even mr. microscope from italy let them say what they want over at waf they have thier opinions and we have ours let me just say this to every body here in my opinion i have been in this great military hobby for over fifty five years and i learned the hard way by meeting many wonderfull knowledgble people and some that were so dis honest they would if given a chance screw any one but eventuly the worm turns they have heard the calling those people are still in with the devil thats untill they pay for what they have done here on earth we still have a few left that might hear the calling soon but they cant hurt us as far as ss items the most sort after ss items is still in demand number one is an ss honor ring second is a nice ss dagger then ss sword they will all ways hold thier value thats my opinion and we shouldnt care what people say about these three valuble ss items if this isnt enough they all can bring thier microscopes to the max show i will have some of my honor rings there they can look they can buy there will be no hacksaw cutting or testing at my booth just looking and possible buying hope every body agrees god bless have a great day andy militarynut

Well said Andy.

hi mike
thank you i have all ways called a spade a spade in this great hobby what you see you get i am here for a very long time i have really enjoyed this hobby and still do along with all the good guys the bad guys or trouble makers i take with a grain of salt they dont pay my bills those type of people only hurt this great hobby we all are here to learn and enjoy as far as ss honor rings that people showed don boyle over the years to get papered i have seen many happy people when don papered thier rings good and i seen several sad angry people when don papered thier ring bad some even was yelling at him calling him names and you dont know what your looking at real jerks that cant take no good ring for an answer many years ago a dear friend of mine asked me to take his ring to get don to paper it good first question i asked him was did don ever look at his ring his answer was yes and don said its no good i said if don told you it didnt make the grade then why do you want me to take it to don his answer was that i was dons best friend i told my dear friend listen to me yes i am a very dear friend to don and you to only difference is that you are a real jerk for trying to cash in on my reputation one thing you forgot my friend my reputation is not for sale to you or any one else now get lost and dont you ever contact me again you are dead to me you lost a good friend have a nice day with out me ok guys sorry i got carried away again god bless all have a great night andy militarynut

yes emotions run high on this subject. I see the latest post by Tony. He is getting completely out of control with his answers,,,and he's supposed to be a Moderator there!!

Some things I don't understand there:

Tony thinks the HR is NOT a mass produced ring! There were close to or ,maybe even more than 20 thousand HRs made!! 20 thousand!! Twenty Thousand!. Friends/members there are many PP rings are not made in that quantity! Any manufacturer would classify it as a mass produced ring...

1. more than once he states the HR is not made mainly from silver. Maybe I read it wrong but thats how is reads to me. Years ago more than one person had the rings material tested. They all had the same results,,they are minimum of 90% silver.. Friends,,thats a silver ring to me.

2 - Tony is now to the point of saying that even PP rings were not pressed! He does have a problem. I ,,myself,,me,,OWN period ring dies including one for a famous/common WestWall ring. I have friends that own others. I've also had a interview some years ago with a German jeweler whos last name is Wilm and told me their mass produced rings were made with a die and press. Sometimes didn't even produce them but just sold the working dies.. BUT we won't get in to that now.

3- Something kept private / confidential but I don't feel like I'm letting anyone down by saying this because the person is deceased.. It was well known to a few collectors that 2 of John Peperas HRs probably weren't authentic. His HRs have been sold. Tony I understand owns one. Could it be one of the rings he had tested? Does it matter?

4. The ring in part #2.. Tony claims there is no seam. just a skull soldered on.. Problem is,,the rings the same size, same year all have a seam! His answer was something about them being resized then resized again to their full size[?] I didn't understand it then and don't now..

5. Jim M. A retired professional business man also a antiques buff to the point he is considered professional by many. Also a military collector I've know for a good 15 years now..He explained exactly how a case like Tony is trying to prove should be done. Instead of thanking him,,Tony insults him..

6. It seems like whoever disagrees with tony he insults them, is impolite, dismisses them outright, answers sarcastically etc. And,,it seems to be getting worse. Hey happens all the time on our forums,,and its up to the Moderator to correct it. Except that Tony IS the Moderator!!

7. he wants proof they are pressed. Well, there is none. I do admit something is weird there. Maybe firma Gahr used some unorthodox method,,but we don't know what.

8. So far though Tony has only proved that there is tin and other materials in the solder used for the skull.

9. He claims the skulls are hollow. They are not. I told Tony something in confidence and now I'll tell everyone. There is a private collector that has 2 fully made 2nd patten skulls. The are not hollow. They are kind of shell shaped,curved in back,. thick in the middle and thinner at the bottom and top. He completely dismissed me! and said on some of his they are hollow so they all must be hollow and they just get filled up with solder.! Actually hard to do,,but I guess they could have been clamped to keep from popping off.

10. So far I don't see where Tony shows the method of how the ring is made. He doesn't explain why the Tin is in the band. . Why his ring is one of the only few that don't have a seam.He is fixated about the imperfection in the rings he shows etc. But guys like Chris SS collector whos had a vet acquired ring for many years doesn't display some of the things Tony's rings do.

11. Ric F.,,, he deserves the trophy for being gentlemanly, polite and good tempered.

To point 11, a close second in that trophy running should be Ron (tanker). I think we can all say here we have only ever seen a polite, inquisitive, and respectful man in his ever constant and reliable demeanor... but how much is the man supposed to take??

yes Mike I agree. 'Tanker' Ron is a good dude. A valued member here for a long time. And,,has one of the best HRs out there! He knows whats real and whats not..

Tonys insults are ridiculous. They are getting worse and worse by each post.. My suggestion would be to complain.. I did,,to Gary Wood. A old member here in the SS section and a fine moderator there in the SS section... I'd suggest everyone not liking how Tonys treating members, his sarcasm, his complete rudeness, to PM or emil Gary Wood.. He's the fairest guy still there on that site that I know..It's not right how he is treating members there.. Yeah, Ron you too a tie for 1st place.. But keep on trucking,,don't take the bullshit,,demand for respect!

I have again shown "Antonio" how he could present his evidence is a structured and methodical manner and he brushes it off or ignores it. I am done with pressing him as I have not received any support from other quarters on this. To date all he has done is provide a mishmash of "evidence" supporting his construction theories. When I pressed him to show in detail how they could have been constructed this way; again I was ignored. I'm done with this as It's a waste of my time trying to reason with a true believer. Carry on gents.
Jim

Its a shame Jim.. You gave him great advice,,,more than once. and he dismissed it out of hand like it was nothing.. You could tell him the sky is blue but the microscope shows its red so its red.

He's done. he's insulted anyone and everyone that tried to answer him..

I've had it with him,,,He doesn't use his own brain, his own common sense..... Hey Tony,,,where is the inner band markings on this Honor ring huh?!?!

Somehow his research/testing shows the HR is something like 88%, less than 90%. Where all the prior testing has shown a minimum of at least 90%. These results have been published ,,yet he dismisses them out of hand.

Where is the method of manufacture? The HR is what? 1 piece, 2 piece, 3 piece?? I've seen a couple times you suggest the HR isn't silver at all? but your own tests show they are!
You have a ring with no seam,,,yet other HRs the same year,,the same size etc. all have a seam,,your answer,,'maybe it was resized and resized back to the bigger size again.

Hollow skull?,,maybe on the fake HRs.. Don has 100s on file that all have solid or semi solid skulls. Andy has had at least 10 HRs at a time,,ALL had a seam. This smooth one,,don't you think it would have worn thru?! But Don doesn't know what he's taking about. SO,,whos authenticating your HRs? Yourself?!

- and yes,, John Pepera did have 2 HRs that to him were questionable, but fake to others that inspected it. He's had 9, 12 ? HRs at a time yet he still could make a mistake..
Your setting yourself up as infallible! Thats dangerous...

I have been polite and nice to you in every email, every post here, every post on WAF. Yet you have insulted every friend I have on these forums. It's done....


W.T.F, have you REALLY proven?

Hello G. and friends,

lab report posted by WAF #667 clearly say :

"THE RING WAS PRODUCED IN AT LEAST 2 PHASES AND USING 3 DIFFERENT ALLOYS, IN PARTICULAR IT IS CLEAR THAT IS A "BILAMINATE", IE OF AN OBJECT COMPOSED OF TWO LAYERS OF DIFFERENT MATERIALS AND JOINED TOGHETHER"

Since that's a fact and I have no reason to doubt it, to me it leads to 2 possible explanations :

1) Gahr worked on 2 layers separately, let's say inner layer to be engraved and outer layer to be impressed ? Later Gahr had to join layers before adding the skull.
Wishing to accept this first hypothesis, a question raises :

why the seam joining two layers is never visible (under strong magnification even) , while seam behind skull is almost everytime visible without magnification even ?.

2) Gahr received a blank silver bar already bilaminated (there could be different reasons to explain it) by his silver provider and worked on it.
Wishing to accept this second hypothesis, the die casting theory is definitively dead because is virtually impossible to cast a silver alloy by keeping its bilaminated structure??..am I right ?

Ric

Ric,, forget about die cast.. True die cast,,like the toy cars.. It involves a permanent mold,,molten metal, injected with pressure, gages to check etc etc. . Wasn't done back then, and not now.. IF it ws a viable method for mass production of rings it would still be used because its more refined now than ever..

Gahr getting it already drawn as a bilaminate? Can't imagine it. Most rings were pre war,,maybe up to 42. But when things started to go badly no one was buying PP rings. Now the HR was a present from the RFdSS! So I guess he could and did what he wanted. but to have a company take the time, the important materials that were needed [the HR was made until 44] I just can't see a company making drawn, ready to use material like that,,,,just my opinion...

So Gahr would have had to been making this bi laminate himself!! Again,,just my opinion,, I can't see it!!

Could the tests be wrong about it being a bilaminate? Maybe some kind of contamination?.. Look at the worn smooth ring above.. Wouldn't we see something ,,anything show such a 2 part construction? I'm up in the air about some of the testing. Things go wrong. The one test he said the outside is 88% maybe lower for the outer band.. It's been tested more than once. All showed over 90% silver..

Biggest question as I see it now is,,,WHY? Why 2 piece, the tin in the solder is no big deal. ?BUT, if he claims there is a Tin band inside the HR,,,Why? It's not saving anything ,,it certainly makes it more complicated to make.
Why would you think so Ric?