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[quote=Gaspare]
I'm writing this because we have to realize Antonio might /probably not come back here. But we can continue without him if we want. and we will get to all of his points! BUT 1st,,please members -
1 - does any member have a authentic HR without a seam? Does the inner finish and engraving in part 2 compare to the photo above? Does it matter?
2- do you believe the scope can show a 'micro patina' that can prove it was made exactly during the war years?






It is very sad that Antonio does not come back and refers/answers to Matthew?s post about die casting. Imho this does absolutely exclude the die cast theory.


1 - unfortunately I personally do not own such a "seamless" ring. Although I have seen some "seamless" ones, obvious period ones, in the net I personally do not believe in true seamless. Imho they do have nearly invisible (to the naked eye) seams. I have had a private discussion on this phenomenon. First of all there should be done exact examinations if there is REALLY no seam. It is said, metallurgically the deathhead and the other ring do have differing alloy. It should be examined IF this is right and IF yes, it would need an examination for the case of a "no seam" if the deathhead and the ring have the same or differing alloy, so this would be a proof to the one or the other side.
There could be also done a serious metallurgical examination of the seam area (eg. with special acid) which would show different metals and might not have the dangerous effect of heating (as suggested).
Imho I do NOT believe in a no-seam-ring until there is a SERIOUS, SCIENTIFIC proof.

2 - due to more than 70 years these rings are around, the "micro patina" might (for me: sure) have changed a lot of times. Artificial patination at GAHR, polishing by the wearer, wearing by the wearer, again polishing (not known how often), natural patination and much, much more. I can show you rings in my evidences which have been offered through the years and each time they were offered they did look TOTALLY different concerning patination! As said, they were polished, repatinated, polished again and so on. How do you want to see "micro patina" on such rings (most rings got abourt the same treatment during 70+ years!).


I think it is a shame, that there is a mudslinging behind the curtains, concerning Gaspare, who is trying to do his very best and in a most honorable way! It does not look to me that "Mr. exactly exactly" does the same.

@jim_m, this have been my own misgivings in a private discussion. IF the collectorship beginns to accept any casting process as THE period manufacturing process for SSDeathHead Rings (and it is my serious and honest opinion, due to experiencees, it is NOT!), the door is open for the mass of fakers to produce "better" and "not so good" "PERIOD" rings by casting.
Even more (sorry, I cannot read Italian) it is said, Mr. Scapini has told the collectorship in his book the ring has been die pressed. Now he says it has been ean error and it is die cast (which cannot be as our member Matthew has proofed!!!), why didn?t he make the mistake NOW (die cast) instead of his first opinion (die pressed)


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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@ The_Collector, the same
"this have been my own misgivings in a private discussion. IF the collectorship beginns to accept any casting process as THE period manufacturing process for SSDeathHead Rings (and it is my serious and honest opinion, due to experiencees, it is NOT!), the door is open for the mass of fakers to produce "better" and "not so good" "PERIOD" rings by casting"
for you.


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Guy,,,thanks so much.. I like the discussions going on here!


A worthwhile experiment:, IF, if we could just get the size of the ring tested... I say that because an authentic HR the same year or within a year but the same size and it has a seam and boom,,all done!
While every authentic 2nd pattern HR shows its seam the 1st pattern sometimes can be very hard to see.

Antonio is a true believer, We can't fault him for what he see's and believes. I just think mentions of GABs being injection molded and other badges hurts him more than helps. Zinc, pot metal etc. is not silver.
I true die cast involves pressure. Molten metal is forced under pressure in to a mold or die [hence die cast]. Allowed to cool then opened.

Question 3 is,,Could the HR be made like that?? I've spoken to several old time jewelers and asked them. They said 'silver jewelry has never been die cast back then,,and not now..
Now,,I received an email from an old member who was part of the metal testing of the HRs with John P. He said,,there wasn't much silver in them!! SO,,not being much silver I wonder what the hell they were made from as they leave no marks on a finger when worn all day long! BUT, might lend it to the die cast theory better! A conundrum!

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The post sent to me about the material of the HR:



" Years ago I gave my ring to a physical analysis company to tell me the composition. Pepera and I communicated a lot about this and I convinced him to send in his rings for analysis. I think he sent in 8 or 10. I have the report around here somewhere. Not a lot of silver as I recall. Himmler was worried about the use of silver at the time and the supply the SS had. That is why the discontinued SS sword fittings in the war. All in my documentation files."

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
The post sent to me about the material of the HR:



" Years ago I gave my ring to a physical analysis company to tell me the composition. Pepera and I communicated a lot about this and I convinced him to send in his rings for analysis. I think he sent in 8 or 10. I have the report around here somewhere. Not a lot of silver as I recall. Himmler was worried about the use of silver at the time and the supply the SS had. That is why the discontinued SS sword fittings in the war. All in my documentation files."


And Gaspare I have maintained publicly for quite some time that original TK rings don't wear at all like the Hapur .925(Sterling) examples we can use as a benchmark for metallic content compared to an original. My over 10 year old Hapur example which is constantly worn shows very little wear which I am sure would NOT be the case with an original example.
"Not a lot of silver as I recall" per the member who privately contacted you!
I have long suspected that this is the reason why J Pepera kept the results private.This is the first time I've heard this and now begs the question. If TK rings are NOT primarily silver then what metal or alloy are they made from? Would it be possible to get this member who contacted you privately to publicly post the information he has on this testing? Additionally I now suspect this may be the reason the Italian guy continuously evaded my question regarding metal content! I also agree with Wotan's assessment as he posted above.
IMO: A Pandora's Box has been opened here and only the facts and the truth are going to get it closed again!
Jim

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And another point: For whatever reason the time allowed to do an edit on a post is now apparently measured in seconds! I immediately tried to edit my post above and was told the edit time had elapsed!
Jim

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Thanks Jim,

The settings were incorrect but I have fixed this.

Dave

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Jim,,, We might get those reports! He is going to be gone a few days though so a little more time and we'll have it..

A post from Antonio on WAF:

"Casting theory is also supported by the existence of the so called "transitional" rings and of the 33 very first pattern rings.
How many dies should have made Gahr if they all are die struck?
Only for the '30 style rings I showed 5-6 different types (easy to do on casting molds when you have 10-20 per time, but non so easy if they were die struck dies) + the 33 first pattern + the transitional patterns + all the 40 style patterns. At the end Gahr had more dies than rings! "


I really don't understand this quote! There was nothing in the videos that proved at all they were cast in the round. OK, lets say they were made by some method of casting.. WHY would Gahr have more than one piece of tooling?! Done in the flat even IF cast you would cast a bar. Trim to fit,,then round! One mold/die..One... Guys,,am I missing something here or something I don't understand?...,thanks , G.

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About 15 years ago, I was looking at my only ring, a remake (according to Boyle) of a 30.6.34 ring to an SIPO man. It was very large, 22.5mm inside diameter and weighing 12.18 gms and I suddenly wondered what it was made of. The common statement in books of the period by Boyle and Patzwall and magazine artitcle, was that it was silver. Well, it was obvious there was silver in it as related in the 3 November 1939 report on the quantity of silver available to Gahr for the manufacture of SS-Ehrenringen, SS-Degen -Beschl?gen (fittings) and SS-Zivilabzeichen. The quantity of silver available to Gahr was 15,050 grams. That totals almost 531 ounces or a little over 33 pounds of Feinsilber.I believe this info is also found in Patzwall's book on the TK Ring. I located the documentation myself in the National Archives.

Okay, so I want to know what is in my ring. How much silver. I had a PPK grip tested a few years earlier to determine the exact physical composition of them, so I returned to the same scientific testing lab:Chemir Analytical Services. I supplied them with my ring and they conducted the test using Scanning Electron Microscopy with Energy Dispersive X-ray Analysis as well as density testing. The general conclusion was that the surface of the ring was composed of primarily silver with low levels of aluminum and copper. The density was determined to be 9.95 g/cm3 suggesting the ring was made of a silver alloy. Four areas were tested: the skull, two areas with runic decoration and the edge. All but the swastika on the side showed only large amount of silver and some copper, while the swaz area showed some aluminum

I was chatting with John Pepera about my test and he was fascinated. I urged him to test his rings. At the time he had ten of them that he provided me a list of with names, dates, measurements and weights.Within a week, John provided me with the results of his tests on four rings with various dates: 1939-was either Ramspberger or Koscula, 1939-Bruns, 1942-Stube and 1944-Clement. John used Argo-Tech/ ATC Materials Laboratories in Cleveland and they performed a Niton analysis via Energy Dispersive X-ray Fluorescence. He sent me the results listings. In general, all four were silver alloy with copper in the following percentages:
1934 91.1% silver 8.86% copper
1939 90.5% silver 9.49% copper
1942 96.3% silver 3.70% copper
1944 92.8% silver 715% copper

The actual result showed miniscule amounts of aluminum and tin that were combined with the copper in the genera results.
As usual, my interests found something to research and I left these pages in my TK ring file.


"This hobby is a continuing education"
Looking for Walther Model 8 #727649
and Walther PP #975557
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JoeW, thank you so much for this valuable posting. I knew that I have read comparable datas already before, but my personal research since days have brought no result.
Your insight coinsides perfectly with the certain proof of delivery from november 39 to Gahr. In this proof of delivery it is mentioned "Feinsilber" and is assumed to be 900 silver. And GAHR for sure did not melt/alloy (and therefore change) silver respective it?s contence.
Regards,


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Originally Posted by Gaspare
I too have no investment in whether its cast or pressed. Tell you guys one thing,,,if proven they're cast,,they're not going to worth a dime,,but first things first:

what needs to be done is a little experimentation. But first:

1. The flaw on the sig rune is big. Not even a magnifying glass is needed. You can see it while its being worn! SO, if cast and so easy to fix why wasn't it? The thinking is because its on the die and once there it stays there.



The flaw is on MASTER PIECE, which can be from metal (silver, metal, gold, bronze etc.) From this master piece are making molds. The flaw stays there... See my book: http://www.totenkopfring.cz/master.JPG

Im writing there about molds. There were 4 variants. Variant from 1940-1944 is same as 1938-1940, just little bit repaired. And thats reason of flaw in Sig rune. Jeweller made a too deep notch, when he tried to highlight the contours...

Transitional ring is the myth, it is Variant of mold no. 3.

How can I put foto here? laugh

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Greetings,, Welcome!!

go to bottom and click on Use Full Editor... make your post then at bottom left look for' Attachment Manager'...IF still a problem email them to me,,much thanks...

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To Hapur:

Rings were engraved as a ring. Here is evidence. Btw I was married 2 weeks ago and my jeweller engraved our names and date inside without problems. He told me: "I made thousands engravings, it is no problem for me..."

[Linked Image]

More infos about producing in my book...

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Fotos of production, again. Comes from my book:

[Linked Image]

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I see Antonio responded to my post on WAF. We either have a language barrier or he simply misunderstood the difference between a steel die and a plaster mold.
It has been theorized by Mr. Scapini that the rings were die cast. Not mold cast- DIE CAST. A die is made out of metal (typically steel). As such it is not flexible. Only objects with vertical OR horizontal cavities can be cast and ejected from it. NOT BOTH. It has to do with the way the die splits (opens & closes) after the casting process. It doesn't matter if it opens horizontally or vertically. A ring with that type of detail and in those locations can not be cast in its finished state (as a circle or a 'ring').

His idea of "you can cast rings in other ways, for example with 2 halves half for the right part and half for the left part of the ring" is simply outlandish and ridiculous. It also negates what he claimed before (rings were cast as rings). Which is what his claim of " you can also cast them with multiple plaster molds or wax. " also does.

It is really simple: the rings were either die cast or they were not. They were cast in molds or they were not. They were die struck or they were not. According to Mr. Scapini they were die cast until I proved it impossible. Now were back to plaster and wax molds. And judging by (now erased or cleaned as they like to call it) posts on WAF, it is not a first time he changes his mind. Not to mention the facebook adverts of the WAF thread as saying "here we go with another truth" but when engaged about it simply claims "But not everything is already said, and I can't say it now here" What the hell is the point of reading it then if the truth is not revealed?

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Originally Posted by matthew

It is really simple: the rings were either die cast or they were not. They were cast in molds or they were not. They were die struck or they were not. According to Mr. Scapini they were die cast until I proved it impossible. Now were back to plaster and wax molds. And judging by (now erased or cleaned as they like to call it) posts on WAF, it is not a first time he changes his mind. Not to mention the facebook adverts of the WAF thread as saying "here we go with another truth" but when engaged about it simply claims "But not everything is already said, and I can't say it now here" What the hell is the point of reading it then if the truth is not revealed?


I absolutely agree. That is why Im upset - he turned his mind in 4 months (I can declare our conversation, where he is calling me stupid, if I don?t want accept his MICROSCOPIC EVIDENCES) and now he is comming with 180 degrees opposite version and screams again - you MUST accept my MICROSCOPIC EVIDENCES! I am afraid of his behavior because it just brings the confusion between the collectors. The scientist must be sure of his conclusions before presenting it to the public. Even if he had to research 100 years. If, in just four months, he turns his theory completely, he is just going to get embarrassed.


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hi martin
so nice to see you posting here and on whermach forum about the makeing of these ss honor rings by the gahr firm and by no means dont get upset at mr. scarpini calling you stupid i have had that and more said to me over my many years in this great hobby but i am like a wolf i wait till i have the right opertunity to confront these cowards . i respect if and when they have the nerve which most doesnt to tell me to my face come to the two big shows and tell me listen every one has an opinion but to call names thats a no no mr. scarpini can do all the investigation he wants on these very unique ss honor rings in my opinion it wont change didly squat so with that please stay well my friend and keep buying the most rare ss personal artifact from himmlers ss this crap discussion drives the prices up not down god bless andy militarynut

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Originally Posted by Militarynut
hi martin
so nice to see you posting here and on whermach forum about the makeing of these ss honor rings by the gahr firm and by no means dont get upset at mr. scarpini calling you stupid i have had that and more said to me over my many years in this great hobby but i am like a wolf i wait till i have the right opertunity to confront these cowards . i respect if and when they have the nerve which most doesnt to tell me to my face come to the two big shows and tell me listen every one has an opinion but to call names thats a no no mr. scarpini can do all the investigation he wants on these very unique ss honor rings in my opinion it wont change didly squat so with that please stay well my friend and keep buying the most rare ss personal artifact from himmlers ss this crap discussion drives the prices up not down god bless andy militarynut


Dear Andy, I look at you that you are holding him. Hope you have read on WAF, how he accused Don Boyle for fake rings with his COA. If I understood well, he was talking about you and your cooperation with Don in that business with fake rings: http://wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=944795&page=9


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equirhodont,, Yes he went back and forth.. Your findings have stayed the same. No sense calling people out ,,lets let them argue like that over there...

You have some good findings I believe. Certainly different.. Many are waiting on what size his test ring is. That will 'tell' very much!!

*Have you seen the test results of the HRs silver content.. Most over 90%!! I find that very surprising and didn't expect that....

Please, can you tell us about your book? Where published? how many pages? Color photos? ,,where and how to get one , etc. etc....,Thanks

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Yes, I know about 90% silver. In documents Gahr is talking about "fine silber", so I made tests on my rings. Average is 92% of silver.

My book was published past year, has 800 pages, is based on Boyle, Gottlieb and Scapini books, but I found and added lot of new thinks - for example - where Himmlers ring was discarded, I have discovered the number of ring patterns and Im talking about production there etc.... Second half of the book is about 26 rings in my collection - fate of all officers. It is in Czech, but there is hundreds of images. I?m looking for English publisher, but it will take long time to make English version. You can get my book here: http://www.totenkopfring.cz/en.html
See video here: https://youtu.be/_HtExFDGnDI
Im also selling some rings from the book here: http://www.totenkopfring.eu/

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Quote from equirhodont:
"



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Czech republic

Yes, I know about 90% silver. In documents Gahr is talking about "fine silber", so I made tests on my rings. Average is 92% of silver.

I have a question: What metals did the other 8% consist of?
Jim

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Originally Posted by jim m

I have a question: What metals did the other 8% consist of?
Jim


Here you are:
Ag, Zr, Pb, Zn, Cu, Fe, Cr, V, Ti, Si

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-
Jim,, The other materials are listed in Joe W.s post.. He tested his rings and John P.s rings... Pretty sure the HRs listed are in the pinned topic here from John.... Joe W.s post - His post:


"I was chatting with John Pepera about my test and he was fascinated. I urged him to test his rings. At the time he had ten of them that he provided me a list of with names, dates, measurements and weights.Within a week, John provided me with the results of his tests on four rings with various dates: 1939-was either Ramspberger or Koscula, 1939-Bruns, 1942-Stube and 1944-Clement. John used Argo-Tech/ ATC Materials Laboratories in Cleveland and they performed a Niton analysis via Energy Dispersive X-ray Fluorescence. He sent me the results listings. In general, all four were silver alloy with copper in the following percentages:
1934 91.1% silver 8.86% copper
1939 90.5% silver 9.49% copper
1942 96.3% silver 3.70% copper
1944 92.8% silver 715% copper

The actual result showed miniscule amounts of aluminum and tin that were combined with the copper in the genera results.
As usual, my interests found something to research and I left these pages in my TK ring file. "






, * eruirhodont , Thanks for the info on your book. Wish you the best with it! smile

*
i

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Ok I see the results which to me are puzzling. I am certainly NOT a metallurgist but I would think that those tested combinations of silver and copper would yield a very durable metal that of course would wear well. As we know this was not the case with TK rings and they wore rapidly as anyone who has examined them can attest. I of course accept these results obtained by Pepera but they IMO in no way account for the wear seen in TK rings.
Again; I have a TK copy made by Hapur of a known metal content which is .925(Sterling) and after 10 + years of constant use shows virtually no wear.

Here is the composition of Sterling from the Internet:
"Sterling silver is an alloy of silver containing 92.5% by weight of silver and 7.5% by weight of other metals, usually copper. The sterling silver standard has a minimum fineness of 925."

I'd really be interested in some sort of explanation regarding the vast differences in apparent wear!

Jim

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Jim,, for me also,, VERY interesting.. How does all that explain the almost premature wear on 1st pattern rings!! You can [with an experienced eye] also see the difference in silver color between the 1st and 2nd pattern.

As far as wear,,,something to take in to consideration,,, A cast ring will wear much much faster than a pressed ring! So we have what we hope is originals and we know they are wearing out fast,,yet a pressed ring like Hapurs seeming to last and last ..








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Hello, imho, concerning the wear seen on many rings we do forget HOW and under which CONDITIONS these rings have been worn! Even when SSleaders most of them had to jump into mud, climb tanks or trucks, did hold rifles and pistols and much much more. Only a small percentage have been these paper pushers some collectors like to mention. So an extensive contact with steel might be expected which might cause a lot of the wearing traces and the worn down condition.
I dare to doubt that any of the modern rings do have nearly the same to suffer what most TKRs had to.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Originally Posted by wotan
Hello, imho, concerning the wear seen on many rings we do forget HOW and under which CONDITIONS these rings have been worn! Even when SSleaders most of them had to jump into mud, climb tanks or trucks, did hold rifles and pistols and much much more. Only a small percentage have been these paper pushers some collectors like to mention. So an extensive contact with steel might be expected which might cause a lot of the wearing traces and the worn down condition.
I dare to doubt that any of the modern rings do have nearly the same to suffer what most TKRs had to.
Regards,


Exactly! i have friend paper pusher, who wears my TK ring for almost 20 years, his ring is like new. Then there is logger - he needs new ring every two years as old one is completely worn out. By the way - inside of rings are are never worn. Sure there are scratches etc but engraving is perfectly readable.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by equirhodont
To Hapur:

Rings were engraved as a ring. Here is evidence. Btw I was married 2 weeks ago and my jeweller engraved our names and date inside without problems. He told me: "I made thousands engravings, it is no problem for me..."


Sure, you are right - it is not problem.
But for like every job there is easy way and hard way. Ask your jeweler if that is not much easier to engrave on flat surface compared to finished ring.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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[quote=wotan
On the other hand -matthew-, you are on the wrong trace concerning the engraving. Here Mr. Scapini really did hit the nail and his observations are 100% correct. These rings, due to my investigations and personal experiences, have been engraved in the post assembling state. EACH elder, german hand ring engraver I did ask (and there were several, whenever I could find one personally) told me answering my question when a ring was/is engraved "NATURALLY in fixed (round) state". Even today engraving with engraving machines are done in fixed (round) state.

Regards,[/quote]

there is big difference in engraving one or two rings for wedding, or present, engraving already finished ring from store's shelf and making thousands of rings from scratch, knowing that at the end there will be engraving. Engraving flat is simply easier and less time consuming.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by Gaspare


tried to watch those ridiculous videos, but after "pearls" like eight diferent engraving tools with different angles, and solder filled hollow skulls it is more than clear that persons who made video do not understand even basics of jewelry making.

I already few pages back gave short video of hand engraving. There is one simple gravierstichel (graver in english) which is tilted at differet angles to get finer or thicker line, curve etc.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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just have read wise words on WAF forum

Originally Posted by Chris Boonzaier
"

I think the problem is, anyone can film through a microscope.... the ability to analyse and reach conclusions is not sold with the microscope

Last edited by hapur; 06/04/2018 04:10 PM.

There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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It looks like Mr. Scapini has taken his toys and disappeared! I have asked a few times on WAF about dates/pics for the ring he used and have yet to see a reply. Maybe he is afraid if he post that info, he maybe exposed.
Ron

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I think Hapurs testimony was significant here. Besides the obvious, a quick search on haps posts reveals a consistent eye for casting details, casting flaws, cast rings altogether really. Most of the folks who have been collecting for long enough to research the forums can easily see the valuable part hapur plays in identifying cast pieces. He?s called rings cast that Gaspare calls not cast, more than on one occasion.... If ANYone is going to see what Antonio sees it surely has to be hap! Since it is not and hap doesn?t agree with the assessments and the videos and images, I don?t know what else there really is left to say tbh.... just my 2p,
Mike

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I agree with Byzanti, I gotten two rings from Hapur and there is none better. In fact his rings are better than the originals I've seen.
I wish Prof. Herbert Zeitner was still alive...what a story he would tell.


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hi members
boy am i glad i think i see daylite in the tunnell about how why and where these ss honor rings were made and by who and are the gahrs still alive and what did they eat before they engraved these honor rings all these people are dead and can not answer us so why are we persuing all these e mail posts enough is enough please dont make me puke with more posts lets get on to collecting learning about our rings please plus we are all back to square one all over a microscope i believe prof.zeitner was he hermann gorings private jeweler in berlin or am i mistaken might be two zeitners please correct me if im wrong now who has the next ring for us guys to give our opinions on thanks much god bless all andy militarynut

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you know this is a long topic with no real conclusion.. I guess he wanted to try here to see if there were any supporters before he went on his own forum. He's a financial supporter and a Moderator yet he starts here [?] confused

Anyway ,,, I am going to start off with a few things.. First,,IF anyone has been following this topic and the WAF ,,,do you see it or take it that I am insulting him? or name calling , anything disrespectful? Sometimes I take stuff personal and get carried away.. IF you please let me know here or privately I would deeply appreciate it!!!. , thanks guys..

OK, next.... and again,,IF you guys see where I'm way off base here just come on in and say so please! We had a couple very respectful professional 3rd reich collectors perform some tests on their HRs and we posted their results back then,,and again on this topic. Shows they are mainly silver. Antonio is to much for me to type,,I'm lazy so I'm going to refer to him as Tony from here on.

So I've read a couple times on the WAF where he claims they are not mainly silver. Think one quote he says that are not silver.. At first I thought he meant the solder. BUT no,, I read, and reread,,he means the HR itself . At least one time he says 'because they aren't silver'... Now the tests done were up to date [at the time] and still are the professional way to test for what some is made out of scientifically. . It was something like over 90% or around 90% silver..

BUT,, Tony seems to me to totally disregard the tests. Doesn't address them or hardly acknowledges the test.. Am I getting it right so far? He's done his own thats fine,,but you can't disregard these tests!

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He's made some ,,what I would call some wild claims.. Now this is just me gents, my opinions.
He's stating there is a Tin band in the center of the band.. He does n't explain why?, or what it would do? or how exactly it gets in there... right so far yes...

OK. I worked in the A/C business for about 13 years [air conditioning]. Tin is used for the duct work for carrying the air.. Tin is a hard metal. It also rusts easy which is why 99% of the time its galvanized to prevent rust.
He does not tell us the width or thickness of this band. * Now we ALL know what aluminum foil is. its in almost every house . It is of my opinion that IF, if it is the width of the inner band and that it would have to be thicker that the AL foil to do something [what?] .. SO IF thicker and in a lets say heavy worn ring. Lets say one of those soomth babies we see once in a while ,,,or at least a pretty worn ring ..

OK a simple test... IF you took a very strong magnet,,or made a simple Electromagnet [they are very strong!] Wouldn't you think that the magnet would attract the ring?? At least have some pull to it,something? even a little?? confused I don't have one,,but if anyone can do the test and would like to post the results here I'd appreciate it!, much thanks....,G.

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He's also made some claims about they are not die pressed. But we know they are not die cast. Every professional jeweler says it wasn't dome back then, and isn't in use now. just not a good way to make jewelry , especially rings..

So how are the made? Honestly,,I don't know.. I used to think die pressed, because of the slip of a tool on the left Sig Rune left a big gash at its bottom. commonly called a die flaw... But tony says NO. They are from a mold,,and probably up to 3 molds IF I understand right [?]. OK, SO why is the flaw there. It could be fixed in a minuet if from some sort of mold for investment cast or lostwax. But Tony is not saying yet exactly how. Why leave the flaw there after the first batch? Thats a question I have..............

He also says the HR is NOT a mass produced ring! shocked.... What is mass produced. How many?.. Many Private Purchase [from now on known as PP here] rings were made less than 1 thousand.
You take a kind of common ring,,one of the WestWall patterns. I know from an interview I did years ago for my project that the company that owned the master die made 500. Then knowing it was a popular design after selling out would sell the working dies to other firms that wanted to sell the ring. [Not all companies especially the real small ones did not employ a die cutter]. They would buy a working die at a good price and could make many many rings before it got worn or broke.. silver and brass are soft and were the 2 main materials used for PP rings and don't forget the HR is mainly silver according to the tests. But we're getting away from the original question,,,what is mass produced. So with some working dies out there, they too would do 500 or so to see if they will sell. A couple companies doing that and you could have a 1000 or 2 made it its patterns lifetime..
Once the market flooded and a lot of kids and people have them they fall out of favor and time for the next style! A couple thousand ]if that] and that pattern is done..

SO,, The Honor ring. Made from 33 [but not many that year and 34. ] But figure 35 to 44. Less than 10 years.... Thousands were made.. Don or someone figured it out. IF someone knows the guesstimate PLEASE post here,,,,whatever it is 3 thousand? more? ,,,that is mass produced my friends,,ask any jeweler,, For a specific pattern that remains the same design and only certain people got them,,not something you can go out and buy , a few thousand IS mass produced......

Well getting late,,so thats it for now... I'll continue tomorrow.. AND please,,if any of you would like to post and not be spoken to rudely which has been happening over there the last few pages please do. Questions? Answers? theories? ALL welcome here and will be addressed respectfully...If not at least we'll have the questions for posterity with no name calling and disrespect and the collectors can make up their own mind.. You see a microscope isn't always needed. The love for the hobby, years of study and yes sometimes some simple common sense will answer way more that microscopes and expen$ive tests.. The hobby has been around a long time without them. And it IS good to have them,, I'm not saying they aren't,,and I do appreciate Tonys tests. But the questions come from inquisitive minds..not computers etc.
I thank you members...,Gaspare

Last edited by Gaspare; 07/31/2018 05:27 AM.
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I was able to check mine with a simple magnet, I do not have an electromagnet or any access to one, but I can say definitively in the case of a night of the long knives dated ring and a 1940 dated ring, they do not react at ALL to a magnet. 40 has of course lighter engraving minus most of the name, long knives is complete inside the band. I put the magnet to both inner bands, no reaction or pull. These are both well known originals.

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
you know this is a long topic with no real conclusion.. I guess he wanted to try here to see if there were any supporters before he went on his own forum. He's a financial supporter and a Moderator yet he starts here [?] confused

Anyway ,,, I am going to start off with a few things.. First,,IF anyone has been following this topic and the WAF ,,,do you see it or take it that I am insulting him? or name calling , anything disrespectful? Sometimes I take stuff personal and get carried away.. IF you please let me know here or privately I would deeply appreciate it!!!. , thanks guys..

OK, next.... and again,,IF you guys see where I'm way off base here just come on in and say so please! We had a couple very respectful professional 3rd reich collectors perform some tests on their HRs and we posted their results back then,,and again on this topic. Shows they are mainly silver. Antonio is to much for me to type,,I'm lazy so I'm going to refer to him as Tony from here on.

So I've read a couple times on the WAF where he claims they are not mainly silver. Think one quote he says that are not silver.. At first I thought he meant the solder. BUT no,, I read, and reread,,he means the HR itself . At least one time he says 'because they aren't silver'... Now the tests done were up to date [at the time] and still are the professional way to test for what some is made out of scientifically. . It was something like over 90% or around 90% silver..

BUT,, Tony seems to me to totally disregard the tests. Doesn't address them or hardly acknowledges the test.. Am I getting it right so far? He's done his own thats fine,,but you can't disregard these tests!







I do not think you are off base and the points you and many others raise are valid and should be addressed respectfully as they are neither contrary points nor personal attacks... they are the established statements of known findings through the ages to this point. If anyone at should feel challenged or attacked it is you and the ones who have helped establish the conventional and accepted wisdom pertaining to these rings. As far as the ironic and personal counter attacks on people who are merely restating said conventional wisdom about the honor ring itself, I think Shakespeare said it best... ?The lady protests too much, methinks....?

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