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Many of your questions were answered by Hapur,,,read deep..

OK, the comparison to the shield is a waste. A no-go..
To show the members here [who some only collect rings] you have to compare to a die pressed ring.. *You have what looks like a nice one on your site. A skull with the makers tag. That appears to be a pressed ring.. *Use the same magnifications and take the same angle shots [or make new ones]..

Compare shots from the eye sockets, shots from sharp detailed lines,, and shots of on purposed smoother lines from the ring and other shots etc.etc.. Compare to the pressed ring!,,,to the HR your saying is cast.. That the guys will understand!..

For me if they're cast I still want to know why then after the first run they weren't perfect! Come on ALL the SS men would have liked a nice neat, perfect , sharp, nice detailed ring to wear!

- Hapur mentioned comparing medal/badges is useless. Zinc, AL,Brass, etc. all react differently under pressure,,some even turn molten to a degree, so scientifically keep it to a related item,,ring to ring. Then do your Cast VS Pressed. ..

As far as copies,,, Come on my friend ,,we aren't trying to simulate a brain stem , copy a spinal cord...
A quote from you:
"Invest some money, find the right jewellers and engravers and everything is possible"... You can't have it both ways,,,a cast ring can be copied...
In 1993 I started restoring old British, US, Spanish, Italian motorcycles in my shop. A few times we've had parts missing from late teen, early 1920s motors. Think of how complicated a camshaft is!! We've had old ones scanned, used cadcam etc. and new cams produced.. Do you really think something like that could be copied and not a cast ring from the 1930/40s!!

So, lets get it on.. I'm sure the guys would like to see photos from the pressed ring VS the cast HR using the same magnification, same angle photos etc.

Last edited by Gaspare; 05/06/2018 01:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Many of your questions were answered by Hapur,,,read deep..


I'm sorry, no one explained how cast signs are possible in a die struck piece. Just looking at some pictures even a blind see the cast signs.

Originally Posted by Gaspare
OK, the comparison to the shield is a waste. A no-go..


If you know the difference between a cast piece and a die struck one ALL the items made in thes 2 ways have ALL the same characteristics. Shields, rings, medals: die struck process has its signs and you'll find them if a piece is made this way.


Originally Posted by Gaspare
To show the members here [who some only collect rings] you have to compare to a die pressed ring.. *You have what looks like a nice one on your site. A skull with the makers tag. That appears to be a pressed ring.. *Use the same magnifications and take the same angle shots [or make new ones]..

Compare shots from the eye sockets, shots from sharp detailed lines,, and shots of on purposed smoother lines from the ring and other shots etc.etc.. Compare to the pressed ring!,,,to the HR your saying is cast.. That the guys will understand!..


Ehy, I've posted several pictures with unquestionable cast signs and no one wants to look at them or exaplain how are they possible. I've asked here ten times to see ONLY ONE signe picture as a proof these rings were die struck or pressed.

WHY ALL THOSE SAID THE RINGS ARE STRUCK NEVER SHOWED A SINGLE EVIDENCE? WHY THEY SAID THAT IF THEY CAN'T PROVE IT?

I can prove they are cast, I can prove the skull were cast, I can prove how they were soldered, I can prove Gahr had several molds for each style of ring.... But before I would like to know which are the REAL proofs of the naysayers.
Do you think the ring is pressed? PROVE IT.


Originally Posted by Gaspare
For me if they're cast I still want to know why then after the first run they weren't perfect! Come on ALL the SS men would have liked a nice neat, perfect , sharp, nice detailed ring to wear!


This is an opinion, that cannot in any way must considered. Tens of TR pieces were bad made or had flaws, including some of the most important awards. This is only a ring, and with naked eyes you hardly notice what you are talking about. We should let the pieces talk for themselves, not us talk for them. Exactly what happened for years on this subject, and exactly what happened in this discussion: all talk for the rings and no one let the rings talk.

Originally Posted by Gaspare
- Hapur mentioned comparing medal/badges is useless. Zinc, AL,Brass, etc. all react differently under pressure,,some even turn molten to a degree, so scientifically keep it to a related item,,ring to ring. Then do your Cast VS Pressed. ..

Already answered: a pressed piece has ALWAYS the same characteristics, no question if it is brass, steel or silver. I posted some shots of Tombak, steel and zinc die struck pieces: no one of them can ever show casting signs.


Originally Posted by Gaspare
As far as copies,,, Come on my friend ,,we aren't trying to simulate a brain stem , copy a spinal cord...
A quote from you:
"Invest some money, find the right jewellers and engravers and everything is possible"... You can't have it both ways,,,a cast ring can be copied...
In 1993 I started restoring old British, US, Spanish, Italian motorcycles in my shop. A few times we've had parts missing from late teen, early 1920s motors. Think of how complicated a camshaft is!! We've had old ones scanned, used cadcam etc. and new cams produced.. Do you really think something like that could be copied and not a cast ring from the 1930/40s!!

So, lets get it on.. I'm sure the guys would like to see photos from the pressed ring VS the cast HR using the same magnification, same angle photos etc.

As I told you you can copy everything, but under microscope there's no way to escape: the truth will come out.
For example: on rings there are some signs made with tool, these were made on the mold and then transferred on the ring when cast. If you copy the ring and make it by hands the signs cannot be the same, under high magnification you'll see big differences. Same if you try to cast a cast piece: you'll loose something.
I tryed, I have many forgeries I've done, some in multiple parts. This is why I can prove what I say.

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there are just going to be things we're going to have to agree to disagree on...* For some of Antonios questions they were answered by Hapur on pages 3 and 6, so for those following please re read them carefully..

Antonio, sorry,,I have a few 100 PP rings but no microscope! and I'd say most collectors don't have one,,,,yet! wink

I agree with you on some things but please,,check with any engineer [I already checked] - "different metals react differently to pressure and of course heat"..That is fact not opinion.
One other thing on your last statement: "if you try to cast a piece: you'll loose something. " this is probably true for the home hobbyist but past that ,This is simply incorrect and there is no argument there either..

I'd say most collectors will eventually want to see comparisons of your cast ring to a ring that was pressed and at least as close to the same in material. This can go on and on but that is what is needed..... Thank you for your efforts and we all look forward to your further findings...,Gaspare

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Again: no one has a single proof. Have you ever noticed that there are 3-4 different dies for each style ring? So how many dies Gahr needed to press his rings? 3-4?
Even this is clear enough, but not for you, nor for those who know how they were made... You no need 3-4 or 5 dies if they are pressed. you need if they are cast.

No one can show you why these rings are die struck so you are believing only to your old stories.

You prefere to talk in your own inner circle where everything agree without explaining why they agree.

Hapur explained nothing, and showed nothing. Only if you close your eyes and trust old stories you can say he explained something.
But ok, you are the experts, I'm not and I don't want to be. So trust the experts and go on.

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hi antonio
you are right no one here on this ss ring forum has proven nothing and i am a dummy i am like sgt. schultz i knowv nothing but in your eyes your idea is correct only to you so guess what then pick up the marbles you win the game end of conversation thanks to all the members here that posted on deaf ears hope you guys finaly get the message loud n clear nothing will chang this mans opinion and our opinions dont count thanks god bless all andy militarynut

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_

Andy,,,yes,, things get hot and everyone is going to hold their cards down pat now!

It's got nothing to do with experts. We're respecting you Antonio,,you the one who wrote the book and showing the photos.. AND, we really are looking for your further work, progress and findings..





No matter who posts what ,,I stand by my facts on my last post on this page! Shits happens as they say and for now we're agreeing to agree to disagree.., Thank you..,Gaspare

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I have a couple of more questions:

Hapur or the other experts can tell me if Gahr used only 1 die to press his rings?

And why the engraving of the same letter is made in a so "strange" way? For example the "S" shows the engraver inclined his tool at least 3 times 45 degrees left, 45 degrees right, and again 45 degrees left. But if the engraver engraved a straight band, why should have ever struggle so hard to make a letter?

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 05/09/2018 04:56 PM.
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Sir, you should really learn some jewelry basics before talking about science and research.
Here is link for your education what does mean hand engraving.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpEnRKk6VIg


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted by hapur
Sir, you should really learn some jewelry basics before talking about science and research.
Here is link for your education what does mean hand engraving.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpEnRKk6VIg

Seriously Hapur, have you ever watched at a TK ring and its engravings?

Anyway: how many dies used Gahr following your theory?
1 die for '30
2-3 dies for the transitionals
and 1 die for the '40?

Or is this another of the questions that cannot be answered at?

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Really, Mr. Scapini, what are you trying to accomplish going on and on and who are you trying to convince, yourself? If you like your research and the way you go about it, then that should satisfy you. Do you want your research to correspond to your book?

Last edited by Tanker; 05/10/2018 11:01 PM.
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I think the language barrier is just too much sometimes.. Antonio tried us here I guess as an experiment as his main forum is always WAF.. And I'm glad he did as he really wasn't prepared... Now a collector I respect with the right equipment and has the experience is going to do it for Antonio,,please watch this video,,it is only part 1 and shows a cast HR:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUiJSBLHezQ


Part 2 will show an authentic HR under his scope [hopefully]... Be prepared guys,,there just might be a way they were cast somehow. Maybe a weird method Gahr used [?]. Whatever, we will find out soon...

* I do thank all who participated. I know none of you ever claimed to be experts and apologize for Antonios comments about our opinions being from 'experts' and the' blah blah' as he calls them on WAF.. To me that is an insult. None of us lost our patience and gave him his space to do whatever he wanted here but I will always stick up for our members here and posted so on the WAF.

So,,We learned what we learned about the HR from the early pioneers, Robin Lumsden,,Don Boyle... Maybe the new technologies will show something different that what was taught for so long...,Gaspare

Last edited by Gaspare; 05/11/2018 01:08 PM.
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He dodged the primary questions I asked regarding the construction of original TK rings regarding the sizing seam and why weren't the cast in one piece and so forth. As far as I can see he is a "True Believer" and nothing contrary to his beliefs matters.
So be it and as far as I'm concerned we're beating a dead horse. I don't think he swayed anyone's opinion and we're all seen the quality ring someone like Hapur can produce using dies. I for one will stick by my belief that they were made using dies.
Jim

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Originally Posted by jim m
He dodged the primary questions I asked regarding the construction of original TK rings regarding the sizing seam and why weren't the cast in one piece and so forth. As far as I can see he is a "True Believer" and nothing contrary to his beliefs matters.
So be it and as far as I'm concerned we're beating a dead horse. I don't think he swayed anyone's opinion and we're all seen the quality ring someone like Hapur can produce using dies. I for one will stick by my belief that they were made using dies.
Jim

I dodged nothing. You simply didn't read my posts.
Rings were cast in round, cut, sized, soldered, a skull was soldered and you have the ring. Is it clear now?
I can add that you can find sizing seam on most rings, but not in all. Not in all.

You are a myth believer, since you posted nothing proving what you say. You said I was joking, thinking it was 1st april... You didn't watch at any picture I posted, you didn't read any post I made (since this is the second time you write the same thing, and already replied to that). Indeed a serious approach in front of some evidences...

I can prove there were used several different dies, I can prove they were cast, I can prove there were rings with no sizing seam..... You can prove nothing of what you said, only trust Hapur that make good copies and old stories without a single evidence. I believe in proofs, you in bla bla.

Gaspare: I stopped posting here what I'm posting on WAF because it is totally useless, no one of you would believe anything, since you prefere cover your eyes, go on with your old stories and you "pressed" rings and say I'm joking, I'm beating a dead horse and so on... Very respectful!
No one ever compared 2 TK rings, but all you know how they were made. Jo shows what I already found, and he said this in the video too. He found out other things that will be revealed, but the evidences the rings were cast, the missing seam in some rings, the different molds, the engraving.... Everything was what I discovered spending months on these rings; and everything I'm posting on WAF was already ready to be posted here. But, as I said, I stopped posting here seeing you prefere to keep your eyes closed and don't look at the evidences.
Tell the truth: those unprepared are only you since you don't want to hear nothing but your revealed truth. This is the reason. Many of you thought my post was a joke, and no one ever looked at the pictures: if you ever looked at a cast piece you'll find out the pictures I posted are so clear that even a newbie can recognize them. And now that the truth is coming out, you try to ridicule me saying "I'm not prepared", you understood that maybe it's time to bury the old stories... A little bit late, but better late than never. It's not my fault if this thread stopped without a sense. On WAF it is going on, and it will be for the next week at least, since I still have to show many things... Even if you think I'm not prepared. Luckily here there's a lot of guys well prepared.

TANKER: I have not to convince myself, I'm only posting evidences. Here, only you are tryin' to convince yourself you are right. My book is older than my research, when I still believed the old stories like you do.

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Mr. Scapini
I do not try to convince anyone, that is what you are trying to do. I do think it is a language barrier as mentioned before. Your analysis/research may be correct but the way it is being presented is turning a lot of folks off. Just my opinion. For me, I don't believe I will post anymore about it as it seems to be the same over and over. Good luck Mr. Scapini.


[quote TANKER: I have not to convince myself, I'm only posting evidences. Here, only you are tryin' to convince yourself you are right. My book is older than my research, when I still believed the old stories like you do.[/quote]

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hi ron
members i think this has gone far enough with mr.scarpini and him trying to convince us that his opinion is the only opinion does he know any more good jokes well we aint buying it hope thats understood mr. scarpini your right and we are wrong well mr. scarpini please listen up carefully here and im not going to repeat myself again in america our country we have the right to voice our opinion and you and nobody like you is going to take our god given american rights from us so keep your microscope and your opinion and your miss understood dna we do not like it thanks hope all you members here agree this is my last post on this above ss honor ring matter i will enjoy this hobby untill the good lord calls have a great day members andy militarynut

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Quick question?has there ever been any war time SS honor ring dies discovered?


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Sworn by oath to support and defend the "CONSTITUTION" of the United States against all enemies, "FOREIGN" and "DOMESTIC"!
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there def is some sort of language problem:

"your old stories and you "pressed" rings and say I'm joking, I'm beating a dead horse and so on"

I've never pressed a ring nor have the words of 'beating a dead horse' come off my keyboard!!!. I just don't know where your getting this from?? I've done nothing but give my opinions and try and get you to show your case a little better...

Yes some of the guys here didn't know what your super close up 900X photos were. Comparing to different metals,,different pieces completely! It was all done wrong PERIOD.. Also, some know you from WAF, know you wrote a book about the HR and wrote it was made from a die! that just a couple months before all this you were claiming the HR was die struck!!! SO excuse them for not jumping on your photos and findings!..
- And, I guess you agree,,or at least Jo agrees! Why Am I writing that,,,because he is doing it the way we, or I asked.. The way he would have also from the start. Show a cast fake HR,,,then in your/his part 2 you guys are going to show an authentic HR!! - Done.
Thats what I've been asking since the beginning and I'm glad its going to be done.. I don't give a shit if its here there anywhere. Once its proved correctly it's done and out everywhere. I've wrote nothing negative about you here or there and only asked for for things to be done more clearly so everyone will understand clearly....
Have a good day..........


PS
Johnny,,, so far no tooling has been found or documentation on
how it was made.. 20 years ago someone told me they have
part of the skull die!!!! But I've never seen it and its never been
mentioned again!.. I'll give it a shot though!

Last edited by Gaspare; 05/13/2018 01:15 AM.
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Every few years another joker comes in with books and signing certificates spouting off about how things were done. No different and this guy signs certificates and claims he can authenticate just about anything, even hoocaust clothing, stars, Clay candle holders into groups or types, and now once again.... Honor rings.. cant tell this guy anything and thats the way he is.

Its about signing your name for money.

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I personally like Antonio a lot, so I am saddened to hear if he took any of this personally. But I do believe Ajax has just made a very astute point, or rather points. G always says too a real ring is a real ring and a fake is a fake. Without reading too deeply into that, it is a truism- real honor rings were made and they remain to this day. They are rare and will likely remain valuable despite how we think they were made. Fakes have continued to proliferate since the war ended, so what is new there? More cast fakes were predictable anyway, and old collections will still remain a largely trusted source of known rings as they always have. If you have an honor ring, appreciate it and enjoy its history. When the time comes, many people will stand in line to be the next to preserve it for the generations to come.

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Originally Posted by ajax
Every few years another joker comes in with books and signing certificates spouting off about how things were done. No different and this guy signs certificates and claims he can authenticate just about anything, even hoocaust clothing, stars, Clay candle holders into groups or types, and now once again.... Honor rings.. cant tell this guy anything and thats the way he is.

Its about signing your name for money.

Poor guy.
If you don't understand that I've done this research just to let collectors find out by themself the real from the bad, I hardly doubt you'll understant the research itself. Same I did for the Memel, the BKAs, etc etc... Not so hard to understand that good books/researches help collectors. Same I did with all those that wrote a book and asked my help.
If you are blind it is not my fault.
And yes, if someone asks my opinion I'm happy to give it, not for money for sure. Simply look at the time I spent on researches and books and you'll find out how stupid are the things you wrote.
No one become rich writing books and spending months on comparisons and researches. And luckily I no need the few euros that can comes from COAs or militaria or books. What you wrote about money really makes me laugh loud! I simply do what I like to do.
I'm lucky enough to have time to spend, and the day I'll be tired of this, I'll simply sell everything and I'll go on with my life.

But again, you are attacking me, not discussing what you are not able to discuss. Pitiful.

Follow the thread on WAF, maybe you learn something...

Nice talk here, where all believe in a theory without any proof and when you start showing proofs they start to attack you. Indeed a great respect and knowledge.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 05/15/2018 05:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini
[quote=ajax]Nice talk here, where all believe in a theory without any proof and when you start showing proofs they start to attack you. Indeed a great respect and knowledge.



All due respect Antonio but your theory has some holes in it as well. It has been claimed that those rings were indeed die cast. Die cast as finished rings as well (rather than strips). That is a physical impossibility unfortunately and here's why: die cast objects are cast between two steel halves of a die that meet at the widest outside point- in this case it would be roughly half way through the width of the ring. Even though the die could be injected with molten material (in this case silver) and produce the correct shape of the ring, it would be impossible to eject the ready ring from the die since there are details on it that extend above and beyond the line where the cast halves meet. For that to be possible any detail below the red line would have to be smaller (or sticking out less in layman's terms). Steel die is not a rubber mold- there's no give on it to allow something to squeeze past it or bending it.

In short, your theory of those rings not being die struck also eliminates your theory about them being cast as rings.





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Sorry, having problems attaching pics.

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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini
Originally Posted by ajax
Every few years another joker comes in with books and signing certificates spouting off about how things were done. No different and this guy signs certificates and claims he can authenticate just about anything, even hoocaust clothing, stars, Clay candle holders into groups or types, and now once again.... Honor rings.. cant tell this guy anything and thats the way he is.

Its about signing your name for money.

Poor guy.
If you don't understand that I've done this research just to let collectors find out by themself the real from the bad, I hardly doubt you'll understant the research itself. Same I did for the Memel, the BKAs, etc etc... Not so hard to understand that good books/researches help collectors. Same I did with all those that wrote a book and asked my help.
If you are blind it is not my fault.
And yes, if someone asks my opinion I'm happy to give it, not for money for sure. Simply look at the time I spent on researches and books and you'll find out how stupid are the things you wrote.
No one become rich writing books and spending months on comparisons and researches. And luckily I no need the few euros that can comes from COAs or militaria or books. What you wrote about money really makes me laugh loud! I simply do what I like to do.
I'm lucky enough to have time to spend, and the day I'll be tired of this, I'll simply sell everything and I'll go on with my life.

But again, you are attacking me, not discussing what you are not able to discuss. Pitiful.

Follow the thread on WAF, maybe you learn something...

Nice talk here, where all believe in a theory without any proof and when you start showing proofs they start to attack you. Indeed a great respect and knowledge.



Nothing wrong with what I said, its true. No attack there, just saying that every few years this repeats itself with a new name and face, you just happen to be the name and face this time. All I am saying is that most of the guys are full of crap and while sometimes they may make some sense, other times they kill their own credibility by chasing the buck. You sell what you research, if your standing in a crowd holding a holocaust camp cap that?s flat new and claiming it?s real and a type 3 or one of 3 types and that?s why its $2000.00, you can do that, but I say your full of S**t. And if your full of it there, why should I care what you say about rings?. Your an elitist, a condescending and fairly obnoxious researcher, who when met with criticism deletes the opposition with administration powers. That?s my research and I have seen you do it. Your credibility is maybe so so.

Why not just be honest, you can?t twke criticism and talk it down aggressively.

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Matthew, Welcome to the forum ... Good post. Hopefully it will be seen and commented on[?]


Guys,,go at it all you want,, an opinion of someone is fine,,, I feel the limit is right there and please don't push it.....please don't make it personal.

So, Jo has already shown a copy Honor ring that was made from a cast..
Next he will be showing what an authentic HR looks like...
I would also like to see what a ring that was produced by a press looks like also. I don't think that will happen but I feel it really should be done..

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So,,Part II is out:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toHAgY9d6PI


I'm sorry Antonio,,, for me it rasies more questions than answers.... You 5 points on WAF ,,maybe at best it explaines 2 of them..

Jos first part he used a 2nd patter. This part 2 he uses a 1st pattern. Not really a big deal..... I wonder if something happened to that ring? I've seen 3 HRs that were worn totally smooth , even skull,,but the engraving was way better than that. Maybe a clean up inside with sandpaper long ago? Here's JPs 1st pattern HR,,just about the same wear to it on outside.. Check out the inside of Johns..

I've only handles 30 or so HRs. Not sure how many were 1st pattern but thats the first I've seen where you couldn't see a seam! VERY interesting.. Does ANY member have a 1st pattern where you can't see the seam.. Antonio,,not sure IF your still here but what is the ring size of that.. We might be able to do an experiment of our own! IF that ring is a size 10 lets say,,,and we get to see another size 10 but no seam,,well than that probably proves it!

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Thanks Gaspare- good to see you as well, been too long!

Next contention is- "the engraving was done on a round ring hence the angled cuts"

Here's a relatively small badge from the same period. Also features the same angle cuts. How many people would believe the engraving was done post-assembly? Another physical impossibility. It had to be done with both parts separated. And if both arts were separate then why angle the chisel?

The chisel was angled because it's one of the hand engraving techniques. You run the chisel straight and it will not eliminate any material other than mark or score it- it is not a machine engraver or roto-tool after all.

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Hello matthew, welcome to the forum! I see it highly important, informative and, especially, logically what you told us about the die casting process. Thus would make it impossible the rings having been die cast. So no die cast process, no lost wax process, I truely wonder -Mr.Scapini- what casting process remains?

On the other hand -matthew-, you are on the wrong trace concerning the engraving. Here Mr. Scapini really did hit the nail and his observations are 100% correct. These rings, due to my investigations and personal experiences, have been engraved in the post assembling state. EACH elder, german hand ring engraver I did ask (and there were several, whenever I could find one personally) told me answering my question when a ring was/is engraved "NATURALLY in fixed (round) state". Even today engraving with engraving machines are done in fixed (round) state.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Hello Wotan,

Thanks for your warm welcome!

Regarding the engraving: since the rings were produced in flat strips then joined at the ends to form a ring (think the part about it being impossible to cast them as loops proves it), they would be almost certainly engraved in their flat state as well, IMO. It is simply easier that way, especially if the engravers are part of the in-house staff (hourly wages). If they were an outside source then yes, they would work with finished product but simply because they had no access to the rings half way through it. From what I gather, Gahr was a company with big enough workload which would in turn mean that they almost certainly had engravers on staff. Especially on a pieces produced in such quantities as those.

You are also right about the engraving machines doing the work on the rings in their finished state. But I think we can agree the rings were not engraved by a machine at that point in time.

Finally, whether my version or yours is closer to the truth the contention was that the 'angled' engraving was done that way only because it was performed post assembly because of the room restrictions. I have posted another piece with the same type of hand engraving which, IMO, disproves the theory put forth by Antonio for no other reason other than the engraver had all the room to work with yet he still used the same type of angled engraving. Would you agree?

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Originally Posted by matthew
Regarding the engraving: since the rings were produced in flat strips then joined at the ends to form a ring (think the part about it being impossible to cast them as loops proves it), they would be almost certainly engraved in their flat state as well, IMO. It is simply easier that way, ...........

You are also right about the engraving machines doing the work on the rings in their finished state. But I think we can agree the rings were not engraved by a machine at that point in time.

Finally, whether my version or yours is closer to the truth the contention was that the 'angled' engraving was done that way only because it was performed post assembly because of the room restrictions. I have posted another piece with the same type of hand engraving which, IMO, disproves the theory put forth by Antonio for no other reason other than the engraver had all the room to work with yet he still used the same type of angled engraving. Would you agree?





Hello Matthew, we, as we are no ring engravers, have a wrong expectance. We (I once did it too) think it would be easier. I can assure you, those ring engravers I have asked the certain question " would it not be much easier...." did only laugh about my question. Engravers, ring engravers too, have been very skilled and well trained craftsmen.
Until the ring is fixed in the round there are several steps of fitting and corrections, also with tools inside which would/could harm the engraving so the engraving always was done at last, at the fixed ring, without risk and with more safety in splitting the free space. at least that is what they told me.
To our best knowledge the ring engravers did their work "in house" by Gahr and it is said there have been four of them, therefore differences in the appearance of the engravings and in the single letters.

You are totally right, these TKRs have been hand engraved, never by a machine. I only wanted to express that even nowadays, after a most significant change in the process (from hand to machine) rings today are still engraved in the fixed round (I think, because of the same old reasons).

The first letter "S" really shows best how often the engraver?s tool has to be set to form it. Moreover there is, obviously in the whole inscriptions, no real straight scheduled, strict horizontal line. I do not know for sure why an engraving at the rear of a badge would be angled but I think it was so deep in the thinking and automaticly executing of these engravers that they always did engrave this way. Just my personal thoughts.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Totally agree: Possible? Absolutely. Only possible engraving style because of the curvature? No, just a general style of the engraving technique as seen on other, non curved items. Another proof they were cast in loop shape? Not even close, IMO.

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-

The HR could have been engraved in circle or in the flat. Both ways have been proven to be done for many years. Not really a big deal.
Lets also agree about the material its made from.. For me not too important. We DO know the 1st and 2nd patterns were a different alloy. And, in the later rings the alloy might have changed year to year as silver became harder to get as the war progressed. So we are ok here too.

- * Now the HR used in Part 2. It has or appears to have no seam.. #1 - is this an authentic HR? The inner band and engraving. How about a simple comparison,,looks at the inner band and engraving on the part 2 video,,,,and compare it to The photo above. Does it appear the same? Almost looks like at one time someone took sandpaper to the inside and then polished it . Jo says it is unquestionable an authentic ring because of the exam show 'micro patina'.. Nice term,,,some don't believe it. I do but don't believe it could show a ring made in the 40s or one made in the 50s,60s,70s etc. There is always a + and a -...... To get its age exactly,,,that I disagree with him..

I'm writing this because we have to realize Antonio might /probably not come back here. But we can continue without him if we want. and we will get to all of his points! BUT 1st,,please members -
1 - does any member have a authentic HR without a seam? Does the inner finish and engraving in part 2 compare to the photo above? Does it matter?
2- do you believe the scope can show a 'micro patina' that can prove it was made exactly during the war years?









Below are Antonios points :
Cast proofs:
1- rings shows casting signs everywhere
2- many dies were used to cast them (not only one)
3- some rings are not cut (so casted in round)
4- engraving is made on round rings
5- skulls are cast too

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1- All original rings will have a seam. Some will be visible and some will be not. And here is some good and some bad news. Good news is- it can be proven by bringing the seam back and making it visible. Bad news is- the ring has to be heated up to see it. And once it's back, it will not go away without polishing.

2. Let's not get silly.

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Mine also has a seam and it is 34 date

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I am NOT claiming to be any sort of authority on TK rings and there are others posting here with far more experience then I.
However; I have looked at a fair number of TK rings over the years and have never seen a legit. one without a sizing seam. Some time it's hard to see depending on how it was soldered but close inspection will reveal it's there.
Jim

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Tanker,,too bad,,,his is a 37... But,,do you know the size of yours? maybe one of you can get a size from Antonio on WAF?!

Matthew,, not silly. These guys are publishing on the internet, around the world!! IF we're going to have a serious discussion we have to cover all bases and cover our asses on everything .
We will be highly criticized, insulted , made fun of,etc. on the net,,believe it!. We can at least offer something here,,,hey, maybe we're all wrong!!
At least we won't assume, make incredible statements etc. so please lets do it right.. I thank you for your answers. Lets see what tomorrow brings. Then I have a few more questions..

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Gaspare
I will try to get a size on it. Ron

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What I really want to know , the HR in part 2 , who said its original ? Are we to Trust someones word that its genuine...

I smell motives , Someone that stands to make large sums of money selling these so called Cast* originals .....that were once deemed Fake

.

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Originally Posted by Gaspare
Matthew,, not silly. These guys are publishing on the internet, around the world!! IF we're going to have a serious discussion we have to cover all bases and cover our asses on everything .
We will be highly criticized, insulted , made fun of,etc. on the net,,believe it!. We can at least offer something here,,,hey, maybe we're all wrong!!
At least we won't assume, make incredible statements etc. so please lets do it right.. I thank you for your answers. Lets see what tomorrow brings. Then I have a few more questions..


That is why I started to partake in the discussion. To prevent another artifact from being flushed down the drain because "it's science so don't argue". Having a microscope makes you as much scientist as having a helmet makes you a biker.
Based on that flawed logic you can literally prove anything- even that the eye nerve endings are directly connected to the sphincter. All you have to do is use a needle- if you poke the subject in the ass, he'll cry and if you poke the subject n the eye, he'll shit himself. Here's your proof. That's the type of "hillbilly science" we're being served.

There's no scientific test that can be performed that it will tell the age of an artifact. On the other hand you can isotope test for Caesium-137 and that will tell you if the test subject was smelted prior to 1945.

There's a reason Antonio never came back or answered after I posted proof pushing his die cast theory out of circulation and that part is definitely not a (rocket) science.

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I am posting the email to me with the authors permission. I'm sure many of you "oldtimers" remember Rob Wells as a respected student of TK rings and he used to actively post here. He also wrote the foreword to the infamous Gottlieb TK Ring book BEFORE he saw the actual content!
Jim

Hi Jim,



Having quickly read through the thread on WAF, a lot of opinion has been exchanged on this subject. The Italian gentleman (Scapini) clearly has his views - for whatever reason - but I think he is wrong. Most of the 'evidence' for the rings being die-stamped is logical and credible, and over the years has essentially become irrefutable, whereas the counter claims and associated explanations of them being cast don't really stand up to scrutiny, especially as acceptance of this position would immediately make (good) fakes much easier to pass-off as originals. Whether Scapini has a vested interest in this is unclear to me, but Gaspare has basically stated everything that needs to be stated - in the absence of any period documentation from Gahr. And if any such documentation were to magically surface, you can be sure it is fake paperwork being reverse-engineered to support some dealer's position. I don't know if CG is still actively promoting the cast theory, or whether he is even still in business, but cast TK rings are something I simply do not believe in.



Regards,
Rob

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As per my conversation witrh Mr. Scapini elsewhere- we're back to 'plaster dies'. In batches of 10-20 no less. It's really getting interesting now...

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