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Originally Posted by Gaspare
I too have no investment in whether its cast or pressed. Tell you guys one thing,,,if proven they're cast,,they're not going to worth a dime,,but first things first:

what needs to be done is a little experimentation. But first:

1. The flaw on the sig rune is big. Not even a magnifying glass is needed. You can see it while its being worn! SO, if cast and so easy to fix why wasn't it? The thinking is because its on the die and once there it stays there.

Already answered to this: you can remove it even from a die used on die struck process, with small chisels. It doesn't matter the process, in both processes you can work on the die, those flaws were in relief on the die!
They didn't, who cares now?

Originally Posted by Gaspare
3. for those that say there are other ways of manufacture the question has been asked a couple times,,what are the other ways?


The question is not what are the other ways, is to show proofs they weren't cast.
Worst of all no one is answering to my questions, but only with: "the way they were made was dies struck", even if evidences totally led us in another direction. Can't really understand why people doesn't want to watch at the pictures I posted.
Why should they be die struck? If you look at the same recessed area in all the rings you want, the same area will be different for each ring. Did they made more than 5000 dies with micro differences?!? No of course, simply the colding process generated different compactions of the silver.

Can someone show here, one single proof of why we should think these rings were die struck? We believe they are die struck but we don't know why and we don't have any proof.
No words, proofs.

There are 5 points: dismiss them one by one, showing evidences, since no one of them is compatible with a die struck process. Then we will be sure these rings are not cast.

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Antonio,,,there is no way to get that big flaw out of the Sig rune on a die unless you did a weld,,which they wouldn't do. Grinding, files etc. would make a bigger mess period!. Now if it was cast it would only appear on the first batch.

For me with several 100 private purchase rings from the 3rd reich and owning tooling it comes down to whats the most common sense way... Train someone for 20 min and they can work a press.
Lostwax/Investment cast is very time consuming. It wastes material and there's lots of mistakes... This wax model would have had to be wax soldered to a tree. Then slip poured in. Then a burn out would be performed. Then the mold gets cracked open and the ring gets cut off from that stem. Then all the hand work.. I just can't imagine Gahrs people going thru that for a simple ring..

So would the HR be cast flat? Would it be cast in the round?


I would really like to see a die pressed ring under extreme magnification. Is there any way you can do that?

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I don't normally post here but I was asked to so I'll respond.
I'm in basic agreement with Gaspare as to how these rings were crafted and I'll review some of the pertinent points:

First off the gentleman from Italy is not the only one to propose these rings were cast as C. Gottlieb claimed that in his infamous book published several years ago. And his casting ?theory? was for the most part refuted by others in the hobby.

Let's for the sake of discussion assume they were cast so we have to explain the following:
1.Why do the rings have a sizing seam? Were they all cast large in the round and then cut to size?
2.Why are the skulls cast separately and then attached? Wouldn?t it make more sense to cast them as in integral part of the ring?
3.Given the number of steps required as Gaspare outlined would casting and hand finishing make sense for a relatively high volume item?
4.Again as Gaspare indicated if these were Not made with dies why were the casting flaws never corrected?
5. As far as finish goes, anyone who has handled silver coins which are die struck particularly the collector grades know very well the quality of the finished surface. I for one dispute the assertion that a superior finish can be expected due to casting.
6.Additionally research I and other have done point to the fact that die stamping/casting was the most common method of silver fabrication during the 3rd Reich period.

Perhaps Hapur who makes good copies will tune in here and add additional information.
I always try to keep an open mind but to convince me and probably many others that these were cast is going to require more proof then a bunch of microscope images.
Jim.

Last edited by jim m; 04/26/2018 06:35 PM.
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Well put Jim.


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I'm sorry, but I disagree. I saw in medal factories they could chage the original die, and in TR they had the tools to make it. Removing small parts of metal was not hard then and not now, and the big flaw you are referring to is really big; but is big for us, I bet not for them. Again you are focusing in something that is totally useless and IMO it is only our problem, not their.

About the rest: prepare a die in steel (now silicone molds are the most used), put melt silver on it and all is done. No need to complicate what is simple. Ring could have been done flat or round, I tried both and results can be really close between them.
Same time as prepare a steel die for die struck. But we don't focus our attention on flaws, dies, etc etc.

About the question why they were cast is useless to make it, since they could have had tens reasons to do it. We'll never know. Maybe Himmler himself ordered them made that way, Who knows? These are only speculations.

At the moment I haven't any decent one to make some shots, but I'll do with a Krimshield, that is die struck.

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thanks very much for the time and effort you are putting in to this thread, very interesting. mike

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hi members
omg now we have to listen closely to more posts from mr. scapini on how when and where these ss honor rings were made i think i can try and sum it all up i remember back when reichsfuhrer heinrich himmler blasted his gahr factory ss honor ring secret plans along with a black box full of ss honor rings in the side of the mountain near his castle im sure robin lumbson can tell us more perhaps he knows where and which side of the mountain was it left or right side holly cow gaspare we all have our opinions and mr. scarpini has his opinion which most of us dont agree with his opinion so far i believe he is posting on deaf ears and he can magnifi what ever he wants it still doesnt change anything i believe we all could care less i honestly believe he is waisting his time here trying to convince us sorry mr scapini pick up the marbles you win o here to mr jim m thank you for your opinion and i have to agree hope your doing well god bless all andy militarynut

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I really don't care how they are made. I like them for the history and the history of the personalities. Instead of seeing endless super magnified images of nicks, scrapes, scaling and etc I really would like to see good HRs. I wasn't going to post again, but regardless what folks say about GDC, we have one of the best HR ring forums and members and hate to see it turn into a battleground trying to prove what (I think) most could not care about of the indepth metallurgy. Ron

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Tanker:
I agree with your sentiments that some of the best minds in the hobby in regards to TK rings share their knowledge here. However; it is important to understand that with the escalating costs of original TK rings the fakers have moved in and are trying to make a killing. The cost to reproduce a TK ring in materials is minor and the financial rewards for a convincing fake are great. IMO there has been more attempted crap pulled off in this area over the last 10 or so years then all the other areas combined. This is why we have to remain forever vigilant in exposing their latest attempts. As an aside: If all you care about is admiring a TK ring I'd advise you to buy one of the honest fakes as made by Hapur and sold here. Because once the price goes into the thousands of dollars the chance of buying a fake goes up exponentially. At that point you had better have the utmost faith in the dealer you're buying it from!
Jim

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i'll stick to dak rings, its safer. mike

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I'm a bit busy now so I do not much time to play around. I think that at such magnification (x900) on any, even polished surface you will see some kind of defects.

About story of cast heads on TK rings. If there really are such signsin the eyes this can be result of soldering, as head will get most of heat during soldering. I have noticed that often when soldering head is close to melting temp, because I need to place it in correct position, I keep flame on it longer time, sometimes I need to resolder it because it is not straight. And it is very easy to overheat, just matter of seconds. Not often but there are cases when I need to replace head just because it is overheated and semi melted. And there you go, it looks like cast. Arround forehead and other outside surfaces I can go with sandpaper and grind off all defects, inside eyes - I do not care. Results are the same - inside eyes there are signs similar to casting signs smile

Same with band.

During TR and long after main soldering tool was gasoline/benzin burner. Instead of today's main gas burner it has much sharper flame and burns at higher temp. So at that time it was easier/faster to overheat piece during soldering.

About rest of discussion.
You know that germans did not use lost wax method during TR for massproduced items. Reason is simple - lost wax method as we know it today, good for massproduction was developed for dental technicians only after war in 1950ies 1960ies, in jewelry industry it came AFTER.
Otto Gahrs production all is die struck or hand made from scratch. I do not know about single piece made by him that would be cast.

Besides that there is manufacturing logic/practicability, that's in long version - we already went thru this ten years ago. If interested and thread is still alive there is much more.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Ok, again lots of words and no one explaining the pictures you have under your eyes.
No one answered to my questions.
Also you don't read what I wrote, so this discussion is really totally useless.
I'm not going to answer anymore, since seems no one is interested to see scientific evidences, but prefere put the head under the sand. This discussion is from the beginning a one-way.

I tryed with my hands to do these rings, and almost all what you wrote is wrong. Wrong about the dies, wrong about the time, wrong about the process...
Anyway if you are happy with your theory without any evidences, that's fine for me. When you'll find one please, give a me call, until then sorry, but I prefere to not talk about the sex of the angels as we do here.

Originally Posted by hapur
About story of cast heads on TK rings. If there really are such signsin the eyes this can be result of soldering, as head will get most of heat during soldering. I have noticed that often when soldering head is close to melting temp, because I need to place it in correct position, I keep flame on it longer time, sometimes I need to resolder it because it is not straight. And it is very easy to overheat, just matter of seconds. Not often but there are cases when I need to replace head just because it is overheated and semi melted. And there you go, it looks like cast. Arround forehead and other outside surfaces I can go with sandpaper and grind off all defects, inside eyes - I do not care. Results are the same - inside eyes there are signs similar to casting signs smile


Last example about the skulls:
Skulls were partially empty and were filled with soldering metal that is not so hot to take the silver close to a melting point. This is known even from a newbie that approach jewelling from 3 days.
Totally different from what you say. And I can prove what I say. But of course you're not interested, since skulls were soldered near their melting point on a die struck ring.

Originally Posted by hapur
I'm a bit busy now so I do not much time to play around. I think that at such magnification (x900) on any, even polished surface you will see some kind of defects.


Just an example of what I just said: thanks for not reading what I wrote an the pictures I posted.

Ok, rings were die struck and skulls soldered as Hapur said. Case closed gents, sorry for posting here some useless pictures and infos.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 04/27/2018 11:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini
If you take an original, and made a mold with it, and prepare a cast fake, the reaction of the base metal is the same.
If you compare the same recessed areas of an original and of a cast fake, you'll see there's no difference in the base metal. This means that the originals were casted too.


When you make copy of something it is more than likely you will get same defects on copy.

Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini
Abstract words and old stories worth much more that factual scientific evidences.
That's fine for me.


With all due respect Antonio, what are you doing is not science, it's just playing arround with microscope. If you want to show real evidence you should show cut of metal to see metal structure. From structure you can make some conclusions. Or more delicate way is to measure density of metal. Forged, die struck metal is about 1/3 denser than cast.

Last edited by hapur; 04/27/2018 11:52 AM.

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Antonio, please do not take offense, nor anyone else in the discussion. I think the fact that we all love and appreciate these rings for what they are as well as how they were made (regardless of opinion) are all part of sharing the same passion for collecting and history. We aren?t a large bunch, but consider how difficult it is when someone comes up to you (all of you) at a show and says SO you are the ring guy? What do you think of this? (Then shows you a ring with signrunes, a skull, maybe a Nazi flag, and something about ?panzer? inscribed on the inside..) before you even get a chance to say it?s a fantasy piece, they have already accused you of 1. Not knowing anything becuase 2. They got it from a vet and 3. They think your stuff is a bunch of fakes anyway. Plus, they already asked Craig who was the true authority and wrote the only book they ever (claimed to) read on the subject and they know he knows his stuff (and it goes on...)
EVERY knowledgeable discussion on the subject we all have brings us closer to the truth, and continues respect and interest in the hobby as well as ring collecting in general. Every post here looks valuable to me, but I do not have to nor anyone else has to agree with anyone?s opinion in particular. You make excellent points, so does Hap, so does G, and on and on here... if 300 people have viewed this, 300 more thoughts added to the discussion even if not one was posted. Guys, this is about appreciating our rings and collectibles on every level... Andy made the point first- we can all agree... we can?t take any of it with us,, just preserve it for the next generation to appreciate, discuss, and study. The words written here by you guys will stay as long as there is a forum on the Internet,,, I?m hoping G chimes in with whatever I have missed here- maybe makes it a sticky?? And again thanks to ALL who read and participated in the discussion! It was a great read!!!

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Originally Posted by Antonio Scapini

Skulls were partially empty and were filled with soldering metal that is not so hot to take the silver close to a melting point. This is known even from a newbie that approach jewelling from 3 days..


smile do not say it loud anymore, anywhere.

It is industry standard and mandatory rule worldwide since begining of hallmarking (so well over 100 years) that silver has to be soldered with silver, gold with gold with purity as close as possible to base metal. NOT with tin or something alike. There is only exception when you can use not silver - only when you are attaching something that has very low melting temp, for example attaching part with enamel.

Last edited by hapur; 04/27/2018 12:21 PM.

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JIm
I appreciate your views and I do like history and I have one original ring and that is all I need. As I said, I like the history of the rings and personalities I am not into the repro rings. If you are into rings as a business or have many you are not just sure of , maybe this metallurgy lesson Mr. Scalpini is giving is useful and interesting, but for me is just doesn't do anything for me. Not saying it isn't needed or important. I am speaking just for myself and not for anyone else.

Originally Posted by jim m
Tanker:
I agree with your sentiments that some of the best minds in the hobby in regards to TK rings share their knowledge here. However; it is important to understand that with the escalating costs of original TK rings the fakers have moved in and are trying to make a killing. The cost to reproduce a TK ring in materials is minor and the financial rewards for a convincing fake are great. IMO there has been more attempted crap pulled off in this area over the last 10 or so years then all the other areas combined. This is why we have to remain forever vigilant in exposing their latest attempts. As an aside: If all you care about is admiring a TK ring I'd advise you to buy one of the honest fakes as made by Hapur and sold here. Because once the price goes into the thousands of dollars the chance of buying a fake goes up exponentially. At that point you had better have the utmost faith in the dealer you're buying it from!
Jim

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Originally Posted by hapur
If you want to show real evidence you should show cut of metal to see metal structure. From structure you can make some conclusions. Or more delicate way is to measure density of metal. Forged, die struck metal is about 1/3 denser than cast.


So you are saying you can't prove TK rings were stuck or not. Again, thanks for providing another point that you can't prove.
BTW, with a good microscope you can see everything of a metal (is called matallography), you no need to cut it, it is metal, not a sandwich! What's in is also out!
Furthermore the die let unconfutable signs on the metal (rubbing and pressure) and you can't find them on a cast ring. Or do you think the pressure of the die is not visible on the metal? Do you use magic dies?

Again you have no one single evidence.
I've only asked to answer my questions with some pictures or some evidences. Not with words.
And again nor you, nor another guy replied to my 5 points and explain how is it possible to obtain what I showed with a die struck process. I appreciated that no one showed anything but all you agree on the die struck process even without any proof.

Good luck, also from the two good originals die struck rings that are sitting on my desk.

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I'm sure this has been covered...but what does the records from the manufacturing companies that made these rings say how they were produced?

There must be a surviving record or people that are still alive that would know.

I would guess they use both die and cold wax processes to produce the rings.


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Well since our Italian friend ignored my original questions for an explanation as to the purpose of a sizing seam if they were cast in the round and as to why the rings were not just cast as a whole -skull included? I have an additional question since he has chosen to focus on the characteristic of the metal and that question is what is the EXACT composition of the silver alloy used in make TK rings by the Gahr's during the 3rd Reich? I am no expert but it is apparent that the silver used by the Gahr's as opposed to the 925(Sterling) used by Hapur have very different wear characteristics? So if you know tell us what the EXACT composition was that they used?
Jim
N.B: The sole person I know that ever had the metal content analyzed was John Peppera who never shared the results with us an in now departed.
Johnnyrocket: i'll answer your questions as best I can. The Gahr firm of Munich was the sole "manufacturer" of TK rings and to the best of my knowledge no actual records regarding their production have ever surfaced. Years ago Don Boyle maintained he knew one of the workers with a last name of Pretschel(SP?) and that he was Don's primary source of information. I also believe that this same man made a limited number of TK rings after the war.
Jim

Last edited by jim m; 04/27/2018 08:58 PM.
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Antonio,, we trying to apply science without doing it the right way..

IF there is another way they can be cast I too would like to hear it. Those rings weren't lostwax/investment cast...
Check my photo - where was the wax stem cut off from the HR? *Also I disagree and we'll have to agree to disagree about the Sig rune flaw. For me its gigantic. Files etc would only make it bigger. It can be seen while wearing the ring,,

Really I appreciate your work. It's just not fully scientific yet.. Where is your 'standard'. Micro shots of a pressed/struck ring VS the cast ring? Hapur made a great point.. You neatly saw a cast ring in half and a pressed ring in half you would see big differences. We would have to see something like that...

. As it is now,,if you have a die sturck HR its a fake. They can't be cast and pressed,,its either one or another. OR we're missing something entirely.......

Antonio your a valued member here. Always good to have you aboard. I think a bit more scientific standards and follow up is needed etc. and we're all hungry to see it!

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I'm not agree with you Antonio
for me the question is not how the rings were made, as a person familiar with the production of their copies, I can say my opinion, the originals were made unambiguously STAMP

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Is there such a thing as injection molding or pressure casting like with plastics?

Last edited by Texasuberalles; 05/01/2018 07:21 PM.
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Tex,, the 3rd reich near the end of the war had just started playing around with the idea. I had a few years ago an injection molded General Assault badge. Not particularly a nice looking thing.. And, I believe [please correct me if wrong] wasn't the Anti-Partisan badge injection molded[?]... I believe if you read back Hapur states why they weren't injection molded..

To ALL the members here,, I just want to say to you all,,, a very BIG THANKS! Why??, because this topic could have turned out very ugly very fast.. I believe over the years our part of the hobby have matured.
They might be trivial trinkets to some collectors but when a few thou$and dollars are thrown around on their prices [and I'm talking Private Purchase rings] they aren't so trivial.. And,,with the Honor Ring prices some with double digit Thou$ands collectors will get crazy when they see theories and photos etc they don't like.

We had no cursing, no name calling, no insults, degrading etc.etc. We saw things we didn't agree with, on both sides, and we kept it very civil.. Thanks guys.....

- * So we have the 2 camps. - those they believe they are cast,, and those that believe they are die pressed/struck .. We're in a new age and this new age the microscope has now become part of our hobby. With it comes big responsibility.. I do like this scientific way but it has to be refined. To prove the HR is cast a more through scientific method must be developed, must!

A cast ring is needed, and an authentic ring is needed. To each vertical and horizontal cuts must be made and then cross sections can be examined. Left over filings from the cuts can be analyzed a number of ways etc. I do believe the microscope in the end will reveal much but as I mentioned it must be done properly,responsibly,scientifically.... This is much harder than most of us think..

- *in the meanwhile,,,anyone have a messed up, worn out, damaged,relic condition authentic late pattern Honor Ring they'd like to donate to make some real history?!? wink

Last edited by Gaspare; 05/01/2018 10:20 PM.
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Injection molding is not suitable for casting silver because of high temp. Injection molding is widely used today and was used during TR for aluminum like alloys and alloys with lower melting point, so 600 C and lower.

Back to Antonio's pics. He made systemic mistake. Guy made copy of ring with defect. He copied not only ring pattern but all defects too. So he compares defect with copy of very same defect.

If somebody want to play science - density is keyword. Measuring density and comparing with other will not destroy or damage ring and it will give measurable results.


Last edited by hapur; 05/02/2018 04:39 PM.

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Interesting point brought up by Hap and g - density.., so should then the weight of honor rings be fairly consistent?

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I'm far from an authority on TK rings but they are being IMO analyzed in the dark without answers to these questions:
Density is related to the specific silver alloy that was used in crafting these rings. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever had a real one tested other then J. Peppera who is now deceased and never released the results..

And I'm back back to my basic questions that have been universally avoided:

1.If these rings were cast in molds as proposed by the Italian gentleman why is there a sizing seam?
Wouldn't it make more sense to just cast in different sizes then cut whole castings apart to do so?
2.Why wasn't the skull cast as an integral part of the ring? Why go thru the extra steps to attach it later?
3.Why are the wear attributes for original TK rings quite different that the ones Hapur casts out of
Sterling(.925) silver?** Is this because the silver alloy used by the Gahrs was quite different?

This thread has danced around microscopic images, suppositions and perhaps examining the entrails of a chicken for answers. Yet no one seems to be able to answer these basic questions!
Jim

**I've had my copy crafted by Hapur for over 10 years, wear it all the time and it exhibits only minimal wear. We all know this isn't the case with original TK rings.

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As I expected: The sound of silence is deafening!
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Not my area of expertise but I'll take a shot at an answer. I do have a little experience making silver jewelry using lost wax casting, die stamping, and fabrication from sheet/wire wink

1 - If you look at the distance between symbols on each ring regardless of size, they are quite close. The only difference is in the distance from the skull to the nearest symbol and is fairly equal on both sides of the skull. In my opinion, one master was used, the ends of the ring shank were trimmed for the needed ring size, the shank was formed and soldered together, and the skull was soldered over the seam.

2- To cast the ring in one piece, you would need a master for each size and it would not have a seam. Otherwise you would have a sizing cut and seam in the leaf design. Or you could cut through next to the skull, but would end up with the skull not being centered in the design.

3 - We are quite confident today knowing that Sterling Silver is 92.5 parts silver to 7.5 parts copper. This produces an alloy with a fine finish and good wear characteristics. Go back even 20 years and this is not always the case. As long as the 92.5 parts silver are present, the Alloy is Sterling Silver. But the 7.5 parts could be tin, zinc, bismuth, antimony, or other compatible metal. All would show different hardness and wear patterns. If the alloy is Coin Silver (90 to 10) or Mine Silver (80 to 20), the difference is even greater. Today, some Sterling Silver is alloyed with nickle which produces a very hard alloy, and some Sterling coming from Asia does not use either copper or nickle and is fairly soft and easy to crave.


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I like Vern's presentation and observations. He states some very good points to consider here.


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very interesting info from Vern

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With all due respect to Vern; that's basically what the majority of us have been saying for quite some time. My points above which are along the same lines were posted for the "cast in the round in molds" adherents to refute if possible. So far silence!
Jim

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Originally Posted by jim m
I'm far from an authority on TK rings but they are being IMO analyzed in the dark without answers to these questions:
Density is related to the specific silver alloy that was used in crafting these rings. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever had a real one tested other then J. Peppera who is now deceased and never released the results..

And I'm back back to my basic questions that have been universally avoided:

1.If these rings were cast in molds as proposed by the Italian gentleman why is there a sizing seam?
Wouldn't it make more sense to just cast in different sizes then cut whole castings apart to do so?
2.Why wasn't the skull cast as an integral part of the ring? Why go thru the extra steps to attach it later?
3.Why are the wear attributes for original TK rings quite different that the ones Hapur casts out of
Sterling(.925) silver?** Is this because the silver alloy used by the Gahrs was quite different?

This thread has danced around microscopic images, suppositions and perhaps examining the entrails of a chicken for answers. Yet no one seems to be able to answer these basic questions!
Jim

**I've had my copy crafted by Hapur for over 10 years, wear it all the time and it exhibits only minimal wear. We all know this isn't the case with original TK rings.


Not my fault if you don't read what others said.
Already answered your questions on post #338017.

About the silver and other metals % it is not a secret, just take a ring, go to the jewelry and ask: can I have a metal test on this ring please? And in 1 minute you'll have what you asked for.

The next minute you'll realize that knowing the metal components is totally useless since in 10 years of production Gahr received and melted silver wih different %.

It is not my silence disturbing, but not reading what others already said.

I posed several questions and no one ever answered them.
No one posted an evidence, JUST ONE, explaining why these rings should be die struck.

When you study medals/badges if you want to know the difference between a die struck and a cast piece you need to study the badge under magnification. See the pressure signs, see the straight edges and look at all those signs that make that badge die struck.
In all the serious books there are showed forensic evidences.

For the TK rings you all think they are die struck, but no one ever looked at them in deep and showed some real evidences. Only bla bla bla... Why? Not only don't want to watch at the pictures I posted, but also don't show anything in support of your theories.
I think it's time the old myth falls, since they are only myths.

Look at the difference between a die struck piece (I already showed some, this is a Krim shield) and a cast one.... The cast one is a '30 style TK ring, cast in a possibly round mold, cut, sized, with a cast skull soldered on it and delivered.
But hey, you know they are die struck so, that's fine for me.
Any proofs to show?

Krim3_1.jpg (79.15 KB, 142 downloads)
K2_1.jpg (49.02 KB, 142 downloads)
image002_2.jpg (67.1 KB, 143 downloads)
Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 05/04/2018 05:13 PM.
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Not to be confrontational, but what is your agenda? You are certainly pushing your idea strongly.

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Not to judge other peoples motives, I would think that some people (ie. collectors) are just purist and have an innate curiosity as to the origins and the process of manufacture concerning the objects of their interest.

It's probably that simple.

Last edited by johnnyrocket; 05/04/2018 06:42 PM. Reason: word addition.

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Sounds like a plan:)

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Quote: "About the silver and other metals % it is not a secret, just take a ring, go to the jewelry and ask: can I have a metal test on this ring please? And in 1 minute you'll have what you asked for."

Really? I asked to have a silver ring tested at a couple of jewelry shops a few years ago and was told in order to analyze the exact metal content of the ring it would have to be sent to a lab equipped to do this!
You reportedly have multiple examples of TK rings so why haven't you had this done and reported the results?

Jim

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Didn?t craig offer some TK ring component micro analysis implicating a drill and fill technique as part of his coa? It was even on his website that there was some known other metal involved? Is this related to that idea? If I recall it was like 80 percent silver 8 percent something or I can?t recall...

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Last edited by Mike (aka Byzanti); 05/04/2018 07:41 PM.
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Jim is right everthing Vern posted has been gone over many many times but we always welcome ideas..

I agree,,maybe the first pattern HRs the silver was a more stable bullion used.. By the 2nd patterns I agree it would be useless to test the alloy. One batch he might have used 835 then the next year the best he could buy was 800. The material used to 'cut',,to mix in the silver could have changed... I think we shouldn't waste time on it,,,and I also think John P. thought the same after doing some tests...

And yes,,dies can make some complex shapes, angles, etc. 99% of private purchase rings were pressed. Quick, easy, unskilled labor can be used and VERY little waste. So me being a PP ring guy my thinking was the HR was the same. There's always been guys looking and studying them so for me it makes sense.

SO,,what stays the same ?!? what stays the same are the flaws....And for me thats what is not being answered. I know to you Antonio that sig rune flaw is nothing but it IS something!. Something that can be seen when the ring is even worn!
I would say a present from Himmler to someone he would want it perfect so why not a perfect ring all around after the first batch!.

Antonio if you really studied the Lost wax/investment cast method you know they can't have been done like that.. So we're looking at maybe some type of unique casting method..

I'm in for anything but we can't compare apples to oranges.. I wish we had an old 'one looker' from an old collection. These rings need a vertical cut and a horizontal cut etc... Showing a shield is nice but its a no go. Same with comparing to badges unless they are made out of mainly silver. .. Antonio,,you have what looks like a nice stamped ring on your site. A skull with a manufactures tag on it.. Check it with the microscope. Look in a soft line, look in a sharp one. Inside and out. It's not a HR but it appears to be a stamped ring. Maybe show us those photos at the same magnification etc. and it will help very much!.

And IF you really want to get down to it,,if all rings are cast then you have nothing to compare to. Were some HRs pressed? and some cast? or they were all cast. IF all then there's nothing to compare to,,end of game..
It would probably also mean the end of the market for HRs sad but true.. You yourself said you can find good jewelers etc and anything can be done with them. IF they are cast then I mentioned something a long time ago.. Lazer scan a ring,,, cast it... IF your materials are even close then you have a good ring that can not be distinguished from another. ..Enjoy!

Last edited by Gaspare; 05/04/2018 09:20 PM.
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About the tester: just go to a serious jeweller and ask for XRF metal and alloy analyzer. It is an expensive analizer, years ago a serious one went over 20K.
Say to your jeweller to download one of the hundreds PDF on line, for example this: http://info3.thermoscientific.com/LP=415?wt.mc_id=cad_xrf_eBook_banner_blog_0615_metals
and you'll find out you no need to send the ring anywhere. Just need a second. And yes, I did it and it is totally useless.


Gaspare, it will be made at the right time.

I only have a question: if you all think the TK rings were die struck, can you provide here only 1 evidence? Not bla bla bla.

The comparisons I've posted are just to show the difference between a die struck piece and a cast one. It doesn't matter if the die struck is a shield, a medal, a badge or a ring, die struck process has its way and it is thousand miles away from the cast one.
If you don't want watch what you have under your eyes that's fine, but show me you are right with real proofs.
No one ever answered to my questions... The reason is simple: no one ever looked and studied in deep these rings.

What's the real, unquestionable evidences about the die struck process? Anyone has something to show?

I repeat: NO BLA BLA PLEASE.

Originally Posted by Gaspare
Were some HRs pressed? and some cast? or they were all cast. IF all then there's nothing to compare to,,end of game..
It would probably also mean the end of the market for HRs sad but true.. You yourself said you can find good jewelers etc and anything can be done with them. IF they are cast then I mentioned something a long time ago.. Lazer scan a ring,,, cast it... IF your materials are even close then you have a good ring that can not be distinguished from another. ..Enjoy!

You are wrong: originals can't be copied as they are, even if they are casted. Under the microscope everything is very well visible if you know how they are made.

Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 05/05/2018 09:40 AM.
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