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#337916 04/20/2018 07:12 AM
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Janos Offline OP
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Gents,
I need your opinion on a WKC second Luft dagger what arrived to my home a few days ago.
The dagger is complete with hangers and portepee and the overall condition is nice. It has a wood core, celluloid covered grip.
What is not so common - both scabbard bands are marked "32". I have seen this type of scabbard with the aluminium bands before and I think it is correct for a mid-late period dagger.
What is your opinion?

Best regards,
Janos

Aw.jpg (99.41 KB, 180 downloads)
Bw.jpg (97.79 KB, 180 downloads)
Cw.jpg (90.51 KB, 180 downloads)
1w.jpg (135.6 KB, 179 downloads)
3w.jpg (115.95 KB, 179 downloads)
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Janos Offline OP
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More photos

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6w.jpg (107.71 KB, 177 downloads)
7w.jpg (100.66 KB, 177 downloads)
Ew.jpg (121.55 KB, 177 downloads)
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The dagger looks good to me, Janos.

I have never seen this type of scabbard band numbering before, perhaps some kind of accountability number from a flying school?


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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Hi,
I am not an expert but have been looking at Luftwaffe 2nd pattern daggers a lot recently particularly by WKC as I wanted to purchase one and from what I can gather with my limited experience is that I believe the Pommel on this dagger to be by E.Pack identified by the dot pattern punched into the space between the two rings surrounding the swastika Pack I believe were the only manufacturer to finish there pommels this way, also the scabbard does not look like a WKC scabbard but I may be wrong? to me the oak leaves on the bands look more like E.Pack and not WKC.
Someone with more knowledge than I may think differently or maybe this is an ok configuration for a WKC dagger that I have not come across before but it does not look 100% WKC right to me, maybe a parts dagger? Let's see what the big guns say.
Cheers, Andy.
PS: Can you take a photo of the top surface of the crossguard as the oak leaf pattern might reveal more information.

Last edited by AndyBurton; 04/20/2018 05:41 PM. Reason: PS: added.
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Janos Offline OP
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John, Andy
thank you for your contribution.
John, I do not have any clue about the numbers on the scabbard bands.
Andy,
I know it is not a textbook WKC 2nd Luft. I attached photos of the pattern of the crossguard quillion arms - it is not generic or WKC type . Anyway I still like this dagger. But off course I am open for opinions.

Best regards,
Janos

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12.jpg (114.25 KB, 149 downloads)
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I have owned a Luft 2 that had similar markings on the same spot as yours.

Regards
Ger

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Hi Janos, As you have said earlier the crossguard does not look like a WKC either and I can't really tell who the maker is, I think you can definitely say that this dagger is not WKC apart from the blade itself and there seems to be several different maker components to it whether this is a possible period assembly configuration or not (I don't think it is) but of course I could be wrong. I'm certainly not saying I don't like the dagger as a whole because I do it looks great and I would have it in my collection for the right price obviously, if it's a parts dagger it's not worth as much as normal but it is what it is and if you personally like it that's all that really matters at the end of the day. I have a Kriegsmarine Dagger that is a parts dagger I did not know this at the time I bought it but all the parts are period, fit well and the dagger looks great so I am still happy with it and will keep it, ok I may have lost a few quid but I learnt a bit more about this hobby and have no regrets about purchasing it, the other thing is who knows the history of it who changed parts why and when?
All the best, Andy.

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Hello gents! Imho it is sometimes very difficult if not impossible to attribute an original, period 2nd luft to a certain maker. Although there are very prominent makers like EICKHORN, ALCOSO, WKC, PACK and some more which used "in house" produced parts (which are easy to detect) there is a mass, ALSO of these makers(!), which do come with generic parts or parts which are attributed to other makers. We especially have to consider the behind-curtain-ties of several firms like EICKHORN with WKC or H?RSTER and other same ones. There is no doubt that there are socalled textbook 2nd lufts which are easily dedicated to a producer and there is also a mass of PERIOD produced daggers with different parts.
This all said, I personally tend to "judge" a 2nd luft more on his overall look, the fit of the parts, the finish of the parts, the traces of having been worn and the thoughts if such a construction COULD be possible. To me the overall look of the dagger is quite homogeneous so I personally would not worry about it any more. If you want to own a socalled textbook (I really do hate this expression!) piece you just have to buy textbook.

Concerning the numbers. I personally have not noticed those numbers on 2nd lufts up to now. It is very interesting that Gerrit1963 states that he has seen such numbers on another 2nd luft. It would be quite interesting what maker this other 2nd luft has been and if there was the same number "32" or another number.
Generally you can see such numbers on daggers, sabers and other edged weapons. These are either part numbers (so that also an unskilled worker could assemble the proper parts and did not mix parts between eg. army and luft daggers; these part numbers mostly have been attached on the drawer or the parts itself) or these are working place numbers when one worker did assemble a row of equal daggers and he needed to fit certain parts so he numbered them to not forget which dagger the parts would fit. Until somebody has another number than "32" I personally think these are part numbers.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Wotan it was a different number, i didnt even noticed it untill i sold it, the buyer was the one that saw it.
Here is a picture of it, a Horster marked one.
Best,
Ger
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Last edited by Gerrit1963; 04/24/2018 06:32 AM.
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IMO part dagger. Pommel, crossguard and scabbbard (Early.) are E.u.F. Horster Solingen product.
Blade is replaced with WKC one.


Schlange

https://mojalbum.com/schlange88

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=916564

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Originally Posted by Gerrit1963
Wotan it was a different number, i didnt even noticed it untill i sold it, the buyer was the one that saw it.
Here is a picture of it, a Horster marked one.
Best,Ger


Hello Gerrit, thank you very much for your quick reply. The different numbers make clear that it is no "part number". The relativly high number let me question the possibility of a "working place" number, but as a dagger serial number imho can be obliterated the "working place" number remains.

If I remember correct, H?RSTER did some kind of serial numbering on very early Heer daggers?

Thank you for showing!

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Originally Posted by Schlange
IMO part dagger. Pommel, crossguard and scabbbard (Early.) are E.u.F. Horster Solingen product.
Blade is replaced with WKC one.
Schlange


Hello Schlange, naturally this is also a possibility.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 196
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Originally Posted by wotan
Originally Posted by Gerrit1963
Wotan it was a different number, i didnt even noticed it untill i sold it, the buyer was the one that saw it.
Here is a picture of it, a Horster marked one.
Best,Ger


Hello Gerrit, thank you very much for your quick reply. The different numbers make clear that it is no "part number". The relativly high number let me question the possibility of a "working place" number, but as a dagger serial number imho can be obliterated the "working place" number remains.

If I remember correct, H?RSTER did some kind of serial numbering on very early Heer daggers?

Thank you for showing!

Regards,


Yes Wotan they did, i once owned an early numbered WKC type 1 fitted army with the large H?rster Logo, that was internally numbered.
Best,
Ger
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

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Janos Offline OP
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Originally Posted by wotan
Originally Posted by Gerrit1963
Wotan it was a different number, i didnt even noticed it untill i sold it, the buyer was the one that saw it.
Here is a picture of it, a Horster marked one.
Best,Ger


Hello Gerrit, thank you very much for your quick reply. The different numbers make clear that it is no "part number". The relativly high number let me question the possibility of a "working place" number, but as a dagger serial number imho can be obliterated the "working place" number remains.

If I remember correct, H?RSTER did some kind of serial numbering on very early Heer daggers?

Thank you for showing!

Regards,



Guys, thank you for your comments!

wotan, you are right, initial H?RSTER Heer daggers was internally numbered. Back I had two numbered H?RSTER dagger in my collection. Sold one to a friend collector and still have the dagger numbered "1" on the tang the pommel and the crossguard.

Photos.

Janos

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d.jpg (117.23 KB, 68 downloads)
e.jpg (101.74 KB, 68 downloads)

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