UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Navy Question

Guys, I'm no navy expert, I believe from a little research this piece is pre 1930, it has an Ivory grip, is that normal for these depot marked pieces??, the blade has been cut down, I've seen this on numerous Navy's just not sure why??,the pommel is a different colour than the rest of the fittings, am I right to suspect that it is not the original pommel but a later period replacement, I believe this was common practice a little later in the period??.
I'm open to all opinions.

Cheers

Gary

2

Large WKC mark

4

pommel

Gary, a pommel in different color generally does not make me think bad. They were held in hand much more that the rest of the dagger therefore a difference in collor might be ok.
We always have to take a close look if you can detect any hand enhancing which is normally on those period pommesl. If simply cast without the least hand enhancing normally is a not too good sign.
BUT a WKC trademark which I am not used with (might be a weimar-time mark), a depot stamp, an ivory grip and at least a typical ALCOSO crossguard would let me think.
Imo a put together dagger. We never know when this did happen.
Blades that are shortened this way obviously were broken after surrender (even to be worn in POW camps) and later, nowadays, when the worth of daggers is detected, are retipped.
Regards,

This is an earlier dagger-upgraded to a M29 at some point.Shorter blade would go with an earlier model. Black grip replaced with Ivory at some time-new longer scabbard. Hard to tell if some of this was done post war or not but the Ivory grip does not (textbook} go with the property marks.

Thank you both for your opinions, I couldn't imagine any reason why this piece would have an Ivory grip, I was aware that some navy daggers were upgraded with the more modern pommels at sometime but was unaware that the scabbards were changed, if I look at this with purely an eye of the patina on the fittings everything other than the pommel matches nicely.
I'm also at a loss as to understand why if the piece was messed with post war an Ivory grip was added to the piece.
Houston, did this piece start off as a 1919 or 1921 pattern, the only reference I have is TW's navy book where it seems that there were many different configurations likely to be found during the Weimar period due to upgrades of one sort or another.

Gary

Gary--Hard to tell but the cross guard is the type used on all 1919-21 pieces.Alcoso was the only firm to retain the same cross guard through the WWII period.

If I'm looking at this then at the total sum of the parts, it is really the addition of the Ivory grip that does not add up. Looking further in TW's volume it seems that scabbards were changed during this period. The pommel does exhibits some nice hand chasing and I assume along with the scabbard could be a period upgrade.
Is the portepee a type used during the 1919/21 period or a later replacement.

Thanks

Gary

Portepee is even earlier-probably not original. As you say though-its mainly the grip that seems out of place.

Just noticed this interesting post. I like all of the parts, when they came together we may never know. Ivory grip on a depot piece of course does not fit as has been noted. Perhaps a hint to the age is the thick leather washer. Imperial ivory grips are shorter than Third Reich Navy grips. I looks like this washer was used to make up the difference.

In our German book on navy daggers we have one of the original receipts for a depot dagger. Who signed it out, when and when it has to be returned. The agreement also states if the dagger is not returned on time the borrower has to appear before a judge.

Thanks Vic.

I'm no further knowing why an Ivory grip on this piece, it seems a little extravagant to think that somebody would put such a nice grip on a depot piece, I certainly did not pay for the grip as the dagger was reasonably priced to begin with.

Gary

Gary:
I am sorry that I can not bring closure on this dagger for you. Do remember that ivory grips were the standard during the Imperial period.
So there were many pieces available during the 20's. Also remember that there are examples of daggers being in and out of depot. Some pieces go sold off and became personal daggers over the years. Also from what I see this blade is standard and not cut down. It looks like so many 1919-21's I have examined over the years. Imperial Navy knots were worn until at least 1923 and many after that. In fact our picture archives show many Crown Pommel Imperial Navy daggers were worn during the entire Weimar period. Navy daggers are very complicated to study.