Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#330835 08/05/2017 12:41 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,838
Fitzer Offline OP
OP Offline
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,838
Wish I had of been a bit quicker on the draw

http://www.johnsonreferencebooks.com/?sh...el-muller-30055

Last edited by Fitzer; 08/05/2017 12:42 AM.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
Offline
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
So rare, I think it's a laser etched fake.


John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
MAX Life member
OVMS Life member(Ohio Valley Military Society SOS)
OGCA Life member(Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc)
NRA Life member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
John are you accusing Tom Johnson of selling a fake SS dagger? I am asking regards, Ryan

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 989
Online Happy
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 989
That sure seems cheap.

Last edited by Texasuberalles; 08/05/2017 03:06 AM.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
Offline
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
Ryan, with those pictures, it's hard to say for sure, but the blade has been re-cross grained, and the etching looks laser precise. Most of us have seen original blades reworked in that manner. Tom Johnson is a great guy, and he guarantees his stuff, but we ALL have been fooled by fakes at some point.


John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
MAX Life member
OVMS Life member(Ohio Valley Military Society SOS)
OGCA Life member(Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc)
NRA Life member
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 720
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 720
Grip & crossguards look very questionable as well as that blade, maybe the scabbard is the only part thats real on that dodgey dagger ?

i also noticed that his chained SS dagger has a fake chain & the grip looks dodgey http://www.johnsonreferencebooks.com/?shopp_product=early-1936-chained-ss-dagger-30042

Whats going on with this dealer ?

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 15
C
Offline
C
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 15
You can actually see the lateral laser lines in the etch! Acid does not react that way on steel, you can see the clear perfect lines of the outer edges of the etch.Where are my "Acid Nibbles"! The steel looks like the grey stuff coming from the ebay Europeans The runes look like Reddic runes. The guard to grip fit is not good. I would love to see the tang,, I bet it has the density of lead or pewter. I would love to pop the hatch on it and let's see what makes it tick.
Did anyone ever bring up the last Xmas dagger that sold, same blade type, same laser usage, same crappy fit, all around (yes even for a "prototype dagger" .
and that is my 2 centavos, back to my bunker I go.
I am only judging a dagger, accusations are for prosecutors and politicians I am neither.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
Hi John I have known you and have respected you as a GDC forum member for over 15 years I have known Tom for 22 years I also respect his knowledge and reputation I wont buy the assertion that Tom was fooled by this dagger. If the dagger is indeed bad there are only two conclusions that can be drawn Tom doesn't inspect or see every dagger that is listed upon his site or the more obvious John I trust your opinion cheers and best, Ryan

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 1
Hopefully not a new strain of cancer in the market place ..and why just one example ?

In hand inspections are always a must in these one of a kind cases and as John said..everyone makes mistakes regardless of their dealer/collector tenure.

A question of Provenance should be raised in rarities like this to support the rarity. Where and who did it come from ?
Blindly posting a dagger forsale without details of history other than just posting it with the normal expected descriptions that are labeled on thousands of daggers.

That description would not sell me at all and have seen it numerous times. A little more needs to be expressed about this dagger ..where it came from etc.

Or would this be as rare as a Boker early SA ?

Not binning this dagger but very skeptical and more info is needed.

Regards Larry


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 166
Offline
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 166
A clear 'meine Ehre Heisst Treue' laser etched fake blade. Not an existing SS maker so nothing more to say imo.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
Dave I'm curious to hear your opinion on this dagger as posted cheers and best, Ryan

Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,414
Likes: 19
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,414
Likes: 19
Sorry, no opinion possible from those photos.

Dave

Note that 16-17 years ago, TJ offered an SS dagger by previously unknown maker K&M. I drove up to Fredericksburg looked at and bought it. You can see the dagger inn TW's book. It helped untangle the M7/29 mystery.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 46
M
Offline
M
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 46
There was a blade with this maker mark posted on the W A forums on 4-18-2016, take a look if you want to. Hmmm??



Last edited by Mikes73; 08/06/2017 08:58 PM.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 720
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 720
Originally Posted By: Mikes73
There was a blade with this maker mark posted on the W A forums on 4-18-2016, take a look if you want to. Hmmm??






http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857254&highlight=Henkel+MUller+SS

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,575
Likes: 6
Online Content
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,575
Likes: 6
Quite clearly a parts dagger with a fake blade but because johnson is selling it people are frightened of expressing their true opinions.Sad.


Regards Sean
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 46
M
Offline
M
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 46
My opinion is I would be quite upset if I spent $4500.00 on a parts dagger, a little homework goes a long way in this hobby.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
Thank goodness this has been exposed, I can't imagine this would fool anyone, least of all TJ... These fake or "re-etched" blades have been around for a couple of years, usually with exotic makers or chained, but seen them even on Eickhorns. There is nothing correct about the motto, this style was never period used.

Pure laser etched junk, not even well executed. Here's a few others, coming out of Eastern Europe as far as I can tell...

Red

SS-EuroFake-01.jpg (111.48 KB, 330 downloads)
SS-ChainFake-01.jpg (131.9 KB, 332 downloads)
SS-ChainFake-02.jpg (109.7 KB, 334 downloads)
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
Some more fakes! Plenty of these around unfortunately.

SS-Fake-Bertram-01.JPG (101.02 KB, 331 downloads)
SS-Fake-Bertram-02.JPG (91.87 KB, 336 downloads)
SS-Fake-Romuso-01.jpg (106.41 KB, 332 downloads)
SS-Fake-Romuso-02.jpg (109.25 KB, 330 downloads)
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Originally Posted By: Redbaron
Some more fakes! Plenty of these around unfortunately.

No argument there. Not liking what I saw including the one Mac 66 commented on, while it's not something that I've done consistently, I've been tracking the 'East Bloc' fakes for a while. The first ones were atrocious, but they keep on making product improvements. Also having seen that unfortunately TMJ is not the only one who has been giving an OK, and/or been selling the occasional fake "SS" dagger. Best Regards, Fred

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
R
Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
I'm a complete novice when it comes to SS daggers but even I can see that this blade does not look right. Has anyone contacted Johnson to let him know that this dagger has been found not to be a correct piece so he can do the honourable thing and give the buyer his money back if he has not already done so.

Best Russ.

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 70
Offline
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 70
Then you can dig up Attwood. Refund case.

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
R
Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
I have emailed Johnson about this dagger and asked him to respond personally on here or through another source, including myself, to what has been pointed out, i also suggested he refund the buyer if he now agrees that it is not a correct piece. I will keep you informed of the outcome.

Best Russ.

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
R
Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
He will respond to my email tomorrow.

Russ.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
looking forward to seeing the response to say the least cheers and best, Ryan

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
Dave do you know what Tom W says about this particular SS dagger or does he have an opinion regarding this maker? Was it in his reference book? cheers, Ryan

Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,414
Likes: 19
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,414
Likes: 19
I've no clue what TW thinks about this one, if he even knows about it. Like others, I suspect he would not venture an opinion without having it in hand.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
Thanks Dave. Others have denounced this dagger as being an obvious reproduction from the online photos. They have also posted pictures of reproduction blades and daggers of the same here til now unknown and unaccepted maker. If Tom W might need a hands on inspection before rendering an opinion is it possible that the members here after been hasty in their condemnation of this SS dagger? Dave do you believe that there is a possibility that the Johnson SS dagger is authentic and period? cheers and best, Ryan

Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,414
Likes: 19
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,414
Likes: 19
you seem to be pushing something here, Ryan.

As I said at the start, I could not venture an opinion based on those photos. Same probably applies to TW as I said above.

Call one or both of them and ask.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
Dave, why is it when I ask an entirely legitimate question I'm pushing it?? I respect your knowledge base and your expertise regarding SS daggers. You are considered an expert in the field and certainly are held in high regard on this forum. I am a forum member who merely asked for an opinion. I did not flag this dagger and have NO opinion on it. I DO hold Tom Johnson in VERY high regard as I do Tom Wittmann. You have been a vocal proponent of exposing dealers who sell knowingly fraudulent items in the past during the life of this forum. You have requested that members name said dealers. I consider Tom an expert in his field and except for Witty there are none better in my opinion. Their collective opinions are gospel for me on SS daggers. I also value your opinion. I asked for an opinion of originality based on the pics of the dagger and wanted to know if you think there is any possibility that this dagger could be of the period. Should you not wish to offer an opinion I find it strange but I totally GET IT. The photos that Tom had online were certainly good enough that some one chose to purchase. cheers and best I will buy you a drink at the Max

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
For the record I have no agenda I'm hoping the dagger is period I'm pulling for Tom cheers

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 333
B
Offline
B
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 333
I agree with Dave, has to be seen in hand.
In my early collecting days back in the mid 1950's I turned up an early SS M33 service dagger with the Wilhelm Halbach TM. I did not think it averse at the time, it was a nicely built piece and I was pleased to have found it. A few years later I showed it to a local dagger king who wised me up to the "well known fact" that Halbach never made the SS dagger, only large well known firms were contracted to supply the SS. Disappointed, I disposed of my dagger. Wish I still had it as an example of either an early fake, or just maybe............

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 151
B
Offline
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 151
Circle the wagons!

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 166
Offline
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 166
Waw... a hand inspection...!?
So no one here can see that the inscription is laser etched...?
Or is that fact just ignored because the dagger was sold by Johnson?

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 166
Offline
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 166
For those who can log in on WAF, I've found another thread regarding these crap blades. Exactly the same inscription.
Bogus none the less. It is a real shame that TJ sells this dagger. Loosing his credibility with it!!!

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=857254

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
S
Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,692
Likes: 4
Hi Barry I agree I was merely asking Dave to chime in based on his wide knowledge off SS daggers in general this dagger has been trashed here I was merely asking for an opinion as to whether or not there was a chance that the dagger offered and sold by Tom was authentic. I respect Tom a great deal and owe him an immeasurable debt. But many here have said it is bad from his pics we used to have a code here at GDC that stated a person had to provide greater detail when pronouncing an item as fake unfortunately we all have stories like yours take care cheers, Ryan

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 166
Offline
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 166
Originally Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com
Hi Barry I agree I was merely asking Dave to chime in based on his wide knowledge off SS daggers in general this dagger has been trashed here I was merely asking for an opinion as to whether or not there was a chance that the dagger offered and sold by Tom was authentic. I respect Tom a great deal and owe him an immeasurable debt. But many here have said it is bad from his pics we used to have a code here at GDC that stated a person had to provide greater detail when pronouncing an item as fake unfortunately we all have stories like yours take care cheers, Ryan


Well Ryan, you asked for opinions... well you had them.
The dagger is fake. It has not chance to be Original. So, also no problem with trashing a fake item.
Weither Dave says it or someone else.
If another one's opinion doesn't caunt and you want opinion from Dave alone, then you better write him a PM or so... :-)

Last edited by Krikke; 08/09/2017 08:53 PM.
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
R
Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
I have receive quite an interesting response from Tom but because I am crap with computers and using a laptop with a dongle that keeps losing the signal it will have to wait till tomorrow to show you what he had to say.

Best Russ.

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 15
C
Offline
C
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 15
Vikings used to cut the tooth from Narwals and sell them as Unicorn horns, I bet all the vikings swore they were real as well.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
Offline
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 915
"Say it ain't so, Joe" comes to mind here... Seriously Guys, how this is even being considered as authentic by some folks is astonishing? I'm sure the scum that produces these fakes is loving this, and giving them some confidence that they are close with their fakes! The laser striations are clearly visible on these "etches"!!!

Ryan, re the GDC "Code" in providing greater detail, I did post some of the many copies of this inscription, others have provided links, this blade is an easy one-glance fake, as testament by most collectors posting to this thread. I am a typographer by profession, that means I study type and lettering and do authentications on scripts and autographs, I could provide a detailed analysis of the problems which make this inscription "impossible" as period, but is that a good idea on a public forum? given we know the scumbag fakers look for feedback on their wares here.

BTW, I regard Tom J, TOM W, Ron W, Fred Stephens as the dagger Gods, probably even Attwood advanced the hobby to where it is today. Even with my reverence and respect for these men, I'm certain they too have made mistakes, even the German Dealers like Detlev back in the day, Weitze and Carsten post for opinions, nobody knows everything, but there is a bank of very knowledgable collectors whose opinions cannot be completely ignored. Sometimes "opinions" can be contentious and destructive, which is why these authors don't post to Forums, other than RW and FJS, but the blade in question is already well known as a fake, it should never had made it this far...

JMHO, Red

Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
R
Offline
R
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 28
See Johnson's reply

Aug 9 email.txt (9.07 KB, 110 downloads)
Email reply
Last edited by Russ1; 08/10/2017 10:36 AM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,209,784 SS Bayonets
1,706,408 Teno Insignia Set
1,072,991 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
SS Dagger 941/36 - Please review
by KaoHsin - 12/06/2021 08:03 AM
Maker Mark Galleries
by Vern - 12/05/2021 04:57 PM
New SS ring addition
by hdmarley - 12/05/2021 02:57 PM
SS Dagger
by ollar - 12/04/2021 04:31 PM
Going price for scabbaerd
by jimdvan - 12/02/2021 02:19 AM
Latest New Posts
Tiger stripe handle!I
by ed773 - 12/07/2021 09:26 PM
Finnish March Badges
by derjager - 12/07/2021 05:53 PM
New SS ring addition
by Gaspare - 12/07/2021 06:04 AM
Malsch & Ambronn Kriegsmarine!
by Dave - 12/06/2021 10:58 PM
RAD Leader dagger for determining originality
by norg - 12/06/2021 05:21 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics30,975
Posts320,968
Members7,064
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
8 members (seany, atis, ed773, Sarcasmos, max baer, Texasuberalles, Jonesy, Honestmike), 37 guests, and 86 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5