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#329120 05/29/2017 03:22 PM
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I was asked to post here too the sudy I've done so here we go.
Maybe here there are some more ring guys interested.


I was asked various times to explain how I work on TK rings, and since only few friends know it, I decided to show here what I developed. Sorry only to not say the "definitive proof", because I don't want fakers read it.

In these years I was lucky enough to handle tens and tens of TK rings.
Since I was not satisfied from the "normal analysys" based on die flaws, 2 pieces construction and type of engraving, I tried to develope another way to study these rings based on the microanalysys.
I tried also with metallurgical tests, but they didn’t work as a definitive proof because the % of different metals was very variable also in original rings (from '30 to '40 style rings I saw a difference also of 3-4% that is really too much).

I also tried to copy these rings in various ways, and most of the so called "important" things are reproducible, including the seam line or the type of engraving (but we all already know this).
I was assisted by a jeweller, and I have to say that cast copies with resoldered skull and restored engraving are among the best results.
Other attempts reached high results too.
BUT they always miss something.

Below a comparison of the seam area behind the skull made with originals and fakes. Sometimes it is impossible to distinguish the good from the bad with naked eyes or magnifier.

Anelli_1.jpg (44.49 KB, 155 downloads)
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The analysys based on microscope revealed details that fakes can’t show for several different reasons:

1) measurements are the first step: cast fakes loose a variable % in dimension (but also heavily worn ring can loose their original dimensions);

2) types of metals used for soldering: cast fakes usually don’t have 2 (or more!) different types of metal;


Cast rings can't have micro areas with sharp details in relief or small fissures because the melting process compact metal. Only originals can.
These areas aren't visible with a normal magnifier or with eyes.
Below a comparison of the same area from the ring in question and a top fake.

0_1.jpg (102.28 KB, 155 downloads)
3_3.jpg (139.56 KB, 156 downloads)
Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 05/29/2017 03:25 PM.
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3) microscopic analysys of metals: this analysys reveals what naked eye and magnifier can’t; it is really important to see how the time worked on these rings and the signs like microcracks present;


A couple of examples of a crack due to the time.

5.jpg (60.42 KB, 152 downloads)
6.jpg (61.84 KB, 152 downloads)
Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 05/29/2017 03:26 PM.
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...and a sharp detailed area.

Lato_DX_esterno_S.jpg (133.61 KB, 149 downloads)
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4) microscopic analysys of the engraving: a lot o details here must be seen: type of tool used, age visible thanks to the sediments present within, to the scratches, to the wornd down and other aspects... (sorry but it's hard to explain everyting in english for me).


Below some exaples: first shows scratches over the engraving, second the compatible patina between the engraved letter and the rest of the ring.

2.jpg (82.57 KB, 148 downloads)
7.jpg (145.1 KB, 147 downloads)
Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 05/29/2017 03:31 PM.
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An area with 2 mixed metals. Usually the bad-good-and very good fakes don't show details like this.

draw_Cam.jpg (80.08 KB, 145 downloads)
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5) ..... sorry but this is a "secret" that is the definitive proof and I can’t share it here to avoid fakers know what is IMO the last step!


I tried to explain in a simple way the process, of course, as you possibly know, it is a little bit more complicated and need hundreds of pictures taken for comparisons and a lot of time of research. Anyway I hope it can clear there are other ways to authenticate rings and I think it can help our collectors community.

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I think this is just fascinating, Antonio- I really appreciate the posting here... but, of course, it was Gaspare on the invite! The pictures are so detailed- such high resolution! Is it a special camera for the photos?

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Antonio,

A wonderful trove of info. I commend the depth of your pursuit & the fact you are holding some info back, well done!


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Excellent thread!
Thanks Antonio!

On the first pic...would you please show which seams are the fake ones? wink


�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
odal #329170 05/30/2017 01:55 AM
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Antonio ,,you don't need a invite to come/post here,,your always welcome!

Very nice. This type of work is new and tough to get right.
I've always wondered what the engraving on an authentic HR looks like with the microscope.

This photo was one of John Peperas HRs pinned to the top here. The darker 'dots' are the entering [and sometimes exiting] of the bit. Then there are the lines. I've tried to show in red here. Be great to see what it looked like in the lines and the dots,,and then the fakes..

Your breaking new ground and there's a lot to do. Also practice makes perfect,,the more you use it the better,clearer,more detailed the shots will become.. Congrats on your work,,its new and needed. Keep going buddy!

Ramsperger_e.JPG (48.31 KB, 139 downloads)
Last edited by Gaspare; 05/30/2017 01:59 AM.
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Originally Posted By: Antonio Scapini
5) ..... sorry but this is a "secret" that is the definitive proof and I can’t share it here to avoid fakers know what is IMO the last step!


I tried to explain in a simple way the process, of course, as you possibly know, it is a little bit more complicated and need hundreds of pictures taken for comparisons and a lot of time of research. Anyway I hope it can clear there are other ways to authenticate rings and I think it can help our collectors community.

Does this lay to rest the theory that original were actually cast? Ie is this final proof that originals were die struck, NOT cast?
Mark

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Mark, As far as I'm concerned I'm going to put this to rest right now. Some will agree, some won't.. A die was involved... IF not,and they were investment/lost wax cast there would be NO 'die flaws'.
. Because a die will produce the same piece exactly as the die looks over and over again. IF cast the 'die flaws' would have ended after the very first batch...

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Thanks guys for your replies, really appreciated your thought about.

Gaspare, I have pictures of all the details of various rings, but I prefere don't show too much.
What I posted here is only a very little number of shots just to explain the way of working, but the reference material is thousand times more consistent. But you already know it.

I spent years before reach this level and I presented this research now because I'm sure it is ended.
The reasons are a lot, but hard to write here all, especially in english.

Mark, about the rings yes, they were die struck not cast.
BUT they were die struck using cast silver bars, and you can see it in some rings, especially in '40 style rings where quality of the silver bars is sometimes bad (everything is visible with a microscope). Rings can't be cast because casting process compact the metal (see posts #329121 - #329123).
Some rings were also hand finished and this is why the external design presents sometimes differences (for example the "saw" signs on the oak leaves) from one ring to another.

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Originally Posted By: Antonio Scapini
Thanks guys for your replies, really appreciated your thought about.

Gaspare, I have pictures of all the details of various rings, but I prefere don't show too much.
What I posted here is only a very little number of shots just to explain the way of working, but the reference material is thousand times more consistent. But you already know it.

I spent years before reach this level and I presented this research now because I'm sure it is ended.
The reasons are a lot, but hard to write here all, especially in english.

Mark, about the rings yes, they were die struck not cast.
BUT they were die struck using cast silver bars, and you can see it in some rings, especially in '40 style rings where quality of the silver bars is sometimes bad (everything is visible with a microscope). Rings can't be cast because casting process compact the metal (see posts #329121 - #329123).
Some rings were also hand finished and this is why the external design presents sometimes differences (for example the "saw" signs on the oak leaves) from one ring to another.

Howdy Antonio, thanks for the reply! :-)
Yours is extremely valuable work for all kinds of reasons, not least because it can help to finally lay to rest this argument of die-struck vs cast.
This is what I've been waiting for; I always said there MUST be a scientific way to identify whether or not a ring was cast...
Bad news for the fakers, great news for us! :-)
Thank you for your work,
Mark

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Originally Posted By: Gaspare
Mark, As far as I'm concerned I'm going to put this to rest right now. Some will agree, some won't.. A die was involved... IF not,and they were investment/lost wax cast there would be NO 'die flaws'.
. Because a die will produce the same piece exactly as the die looks over and over again. IF cast the 'die flaws' would have ended after the very first batch...

Thanks Gaspare.
Please bear with me, but I'm not sure I totally understand yet.. could you please expand on this:
'IF cast the 'die flaws' would have ended after the very first batch...'
In everyday simple English, so even a newbie like me can understand, LOL!
Thanks for the clarification,
Mark

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This is one of the rings I've done. I post here just a couple of shots. It is the first time I show these rings.
It is a nice attempt, but not the best one. They were used as comparison in a lot of analysys and I think they would fool most part of the collectors.
You can imagine if I did it someone else could do the same. And did it, no doubt about. Faker can easily artificially worn it down and a beautiful worn "original" ring appears on the market!
This is why I insist that most part of the TK rings today must be seen in hands.
In the recent past I saw rings with COA that were fakes at 100%.

z1_1.jpg (118.62 KB, 87 downloads)
z3_1.jpg (100.66 KB, 84 downloads)
Last edited by Antonio Scapini; 05/31/2017 04:44 PM.
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Antonio,, I understand and no problem.. Thanks for your posts..

Mark,,no problem,, and it really is simple. Hopefully if members are really in to ring collecting at one time or another they did a search on 'lost wax cast' or 'investment casting'.,,anyway lets continue.

Will try to be as simple as can - well a die is one master die. It makes working dies. When a working die wears or breaks another is made from the master. Everything it makes is exactly the same,,exactly! So a mistake on the master [die flaw] will come out on the working die and on all the rings it makes. Good so far?

With a cast,,one way or another wax is involved. How simple would it be to take the wax model and smooth out any flaws? Very simple.

Here is a wax ring coming out of the mold ready to be cast. How long would it take to smooth out a scratch or hole or another flaw from wax? seconds! and even simpler,,would be to correct the model that makes the the rubber mold. With a little work every cast ring would be perfect.

Authentic HRs have flaws,,thats because they are from a master die, cut by hand, hardened and working dies made from it,,EVERY ring will be the same and have the same flaws.. IF HRs were cast they would be perfect,,no flaws anywhere....

014.JPG (78.67 KB, 67 downloads)
Last edited by Gaspare; 05/31/2017 11:24 PM.

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