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#328394 04/27/2017 02:47 PM
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Hello guys I think we all accept that famous personality SS daggers and damascus honor daggers would be at the top of most lists but what do you individual collectors consider the hierarchy of SS daggers unground Rohm, Himmler honor, Furth Sportschule, mint bagged and tagged (RZM or maker) chained SS etc......I am curious cheers and regards, Ryan smile

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Ryan, from a rarity point of view, I would guess that the Furth Sposts daggers would be the rarest.

It is surprising how many full Rohms survived and are floating around today.

John


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Hi John I agree also many Himmler pieces. Do you think there are more full Rohm SS than Himmler honor? cheers, Ryan

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There seem to be more Rohms surfacing due to a period of transition moving from older collections to another collection or forsale to accommodate finances.

I would say Rohm SS daggers have to be very rare.

Regards Larry


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There do seem to be a rather large number of Rohm daggers out there. Given the fact that keeping them whole was illegal and treason, I do wonder why so many have survived.

In terms of what I have seen for sale over the past few years, I would have to say that Himmlers are harder to find than Rohms.

J


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Hi John do you think that Himmlers are at the top of the desirability list? cheers, Ryan

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Ryan:

The things make the Himmlers very desirable:

1) They are SS daggers, the most notorious of the German armed forces and as fanatical and political as possible with heroism and atrocities galore.

2) Himmler was an infamous leader and a weasel with a reputation as one of the most ferocious and fanatical of the SS.

3) The Himmler daggers make up a very small subset in numbers of the total SS daggers produced.

At the same time, Rohm, although an early follower of Hitler and Nazism, was declared a traitor as well as a homosexual (I think the latter was the worse in the eyes of the Nazis) and, while well liked by most rank and file members of the SA and SS, had his reputation and daggers suppressed by the leadership.

I sure wish that SS guys like Tom W or Tom J or JR would chime in on this conversation.

John


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One thing I've always wondered, given the ruthless suppression of Rohm and his daggers: who ended up with his? Was it destroyed, along with the man and his ideas?

I've talked with many veterans of the SA and SS, and while most acknowledged the following of the order to delete the inscription to some degree, not one ever stated that anyone ever bothered to check if it was indeed carried out.

I think we have found that with the advent of the internet, very few things seem to be rare and a lot more things survived the maelstrom than was previously thought.

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I think you all are forgetting something: the Himmler and the SS Rohm were presentation daggers given after most of the members already had their service dagger, so most just put the presentation up on a shelf. This is why many you find still in the veteran's hands are in such good condition: hardly ever worn.


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Good point, Ron.


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We all seen Röhms and Himmler daggers.. if I would pic ... I would choose a SS dagger with van den Bach Zalewski etching.
Now how many you see of those floating around.
Just my 2 cents
Emil

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What type of etching is that? I never heard of it.The prices of SS daggers has fallen quite a bit. I see some of the dealers asking %4500-$6000, forget it, never happen.
thanks
Bob


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Bob,

It is a dedication by that general on a regular SS dagger.

Prices ? If you got rarer makers or really top condition, prices have gone up. Seen a Jacobs, or Schuttelhofer, or Gembruch, lately ? Or K&B or Puma ?

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I have to agree with Dave. I have seen that most of the best condition SS daggers routinely sell for high prices. Would appear that dealer reputation can often be the determining factor in prices realized SS are always desirable. Still haven't reached close to the values of Barbies, GI Joes some Star Wars toys and sports cards cheers, Ryan

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Hi All:

Just back from researching in the captured German records at the Archives and thought I would finally chime in on the "Pinnacle" of SS daggers. I own more than a dozen of ones that have been identifiable that have been among the ones that have most excited me. I don't have much respect from those internet "experts" who have never owned one and base all of their knowledge on what they see in photos on the net. One of the rarest of mine is a numbered Furst that was identifiable. Only TWO that are numbered have been identifiable so far to the original owner and this is the ONLY ONE where the SS Mann's records actually record that he was at the Furst SS Sports School for the benefit of haters and trolls.

Himmler daggers have usually not excited me since they have no "soul" by not knowing who, if anyone, was the original recipient. I have documented that Himmler was awarding these as early as May 1934 dispelling the "myth" that they were made up after the Night of the Long Knives. As evidenced in the Himmler Gift Lists, he only awarded his "Ehrendolch der SS-Reichsführer" in 1934. After that it was all Ehrendegens. If you look at the superb research published by Ralf Siegert in his "The Service Dagger of the SS" you will see reproduced two very imporant letters. One dated 7 October 1940 letter to a member of RFSS staff that the writer had 749 Himmler daggers in storage and he was asking for an appropriate directive for their disposition. A telegram dated 10 May 1942 to a member of the Reichsführer-SS personal staff in Berlin says that there were 80 Himmler daggers in an office cabinet of the adjutant of the Reichsführer-SS in Munich and asks what to do with them since the sender assumed that Himmler was no longer givings these as presents.

I wonder how many of these minty Himmler's we see today were captured at the end of the war from these hordes and never awarded.

That said, I obtained last year the only Himmler dagger that I have seen that is neatly engraved with the name and SS membership number of the recipient! And as to whether or not these were worn, you can tell from the wear that this one was and the recipient proudly upgraded it to a M1936 chained scabbard. Would have been pretty impressive to pull that one out to show to your SS buds while standing around the water cooler! The recipient was a member of the
RFSS personal staff in Munich at the Brown House starting in the Spring of 1934 and was there during the Night of the Long Knives. His records show that he received the dagger and was promoted by September 1934 which seems to indicate to me that this was one of those awarded for participation in putting down the "Rohm Revolt." He would have been familiar with many of the SA personnel working in the Brown House during the roundup. The recipient continued up the chain of command and eventually became one of the commanders in charge of SS Production at Dachau until the end of the war.

Again for the doubters, haters and trolls, you couldn't pay enough to search through the SS personnel records to find someone that "fit the bill" for either of these daggers to be faked. Now these are a few on my pinnacle. But its JMO.

RossK
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Hi Ross I would certainly have to agree with you,first that Honor daggers were awarded prior to the Rohm purge, thus explaining that the same dedication is used for the head of the SS and of the SA, makes sense. Also I would agree with your pinnacle of SS daggers. I consider an SS attributed and researched dagger purchase from you to be the same as an NPEA dagger from Ron and an SS honor ring from Don top of the heap cheers and best, Ryan

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I will mention another "Peak" out there for SS daggers (maybe there actually needs to be several categories). Identified partial ground SS Röhm's are actually rarer, in my experience, than unground SS Röhm's identifiable to those naughty nazis. I had the opportunity to acquire a numbered one with only the Röhm name removed that had been found by the late Bernie Brulé in Canada in the 1980s. Through the pioneer research of Ron Weinand, it was identified to Untersturmführer Johann Zur Brugge and with the help of Robert McDivitt they actually found Brugge still living in Germany! Sending him photos of the dagger, Brugge wrote back that it was his and was collected by his unit after the "Röhm Revolt" and when returned the offensive Röhm was removed and his SS membership had been engraved on it. He added that he had not seen the dagger since the end of the war when the Canadian army came through his region! You can read about in Tom Johnson's Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Vol. VII further establishing a provenance for the piece. I found Brugge's Race & Settlement File in the National Archives that included his three required photographs and his handwritten Lebenslauf where the handwriting matched his 1990s letter! So for the benefit of the doubters, haters, "x-spurts", fakers and trolls, how many partial ground SS Röhms, much less any SS dagger, do you know of with a letter from the SS Mann saying that it was his?

As a sidebar to the Furst dagger, the original recipient went on to become an officer in the 14th Waffen-SS Grenadier (Galicien) Division and was killed in a partisan attack on a train on which he was riding in the summer of 1944. He is buried today in marked grave in the Czech Republic.

Now that's making history personal!

RossK
www.ssdaggers.com


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Highly interesting research done Ross
may I ask what a "Furst Dagger" is ,I have never seen or heard about it


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Actually, when I was looking about a year ago it did amaze me how many full inscription SS Rohms are out there. Prices are down a bit unless you have an interesting named piece or superior conditioned piece. I truly like the price decrease and hope it continues, however, top pieces still can't be bought for any price!
Bob

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Lanner,

I'm presuming the type of dagger is from the SS Sportschule at Furth.


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I always liked the Christmas daggers .

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The Zewalski is also sorta rare too. Zum Vohl smile


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