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Look at the cast lines, but also the hallmarks! Skulls are the toughest of them all...here's one reason why... (pictures courtesy of eBay.de)

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ado Offline
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anyone else thinks that this is a bad ring?

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a super rare pattern ring.. I have a interwar period advert for it!

This one,,not too bad looking to me!

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I knew it! As soon as i have seen this one pop up i hit that "Buy It Now" button.
Lucky i got this one, extremely rare. Just wish i could find out who was the jeweler
as it has some good jeweler marks for research.

Thanks Gaspare, when you get a chance it would be nice if you can please post the pic of the period advert for this ring.

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Hey congrats and good for you ado... I saw this and got a different opinion from someone else whose opinion I trust. But guess you win again you super sniper! Aren't you the lucky buyer! And let's all hope you find more great rings!

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Call me paranoid, but i think it is a cast fake and think it has a lot problems.
Just my opinion.
Best is you like it

cats.jpg (121.94 KB, 471 downloads)

�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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can someone explain to me the meaning between a cast made ring and others?


By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.
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Agree with Odal, if you have a chance better get your money back.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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Originally Posted By: goodtimes
can someone explain to me the meaning between a cast made ring and others?


Cast usually refers to it being a fake , as most German rings are traditionally Die struck .

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Cast means it has been made from a casting mold, usually of an original ring. It's a copy. There are lots of casting methods- if you get a chance, google it- investment, lost wax, etc. Generally speaking, the main way these ring were made is by a pressed die, also called "die-struck" rings. They could be pressed, stamped, maybe even made through a rolling block - but the character traits are thin banded, light pieces from die struck rings- at least in terms of these kantinenrings. The consensus is that honor rings were made the same way, not poured into casting molds. The member "hapur" reproduces beautifully done personalized honor rings on the traditional die struck way. Some believe however that these rings were cast (I don't) but to each their own.

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I did not expect nothing else from you. This is third of my rings where you have attacked them and that is after Gaspare has called them good and original rings.

I will prove to you right here that you dont know...
look back in 2012 how your friend Hapur has attacked one of your rings for the same reason you are attacking mine right here right now "cast mark" right inside the same left eye socket! Hmmm And what was your response....

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=271736#Post271736

Mike, i hope when you have seen this ring for sale that for opinions you didn't contact Odal or Hapur bacause if you continue listening to two of them you will miss on a lot more good original rings!

image.jpeg (109.92 KB, 452 downloads)
Last edited by ado; 04/18/2017 01:29 PM.
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grin
Where is your problem?
Different people have different opinions to all times.
Not worth for me a dispute.
If you are not able to read an opinion you don`t like
you are at the wrong place here.

I think someone other has still told this to you.


�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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ado,

Posting a negative opinion of an artifact is not an "attack". Consider re-reading the board rule. A link is at the bottom of every page.

If you cannot accept varying opinions, you may want to look for another venue.

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thanks mike for the explanation. so how can you tell the difference between cast and die struck looking at any ring?
i see gotz has pointed out some in perfections. is that the way?


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You have to know what you're looking for, for sure... casting flaws come from things you might expect to find as a problem with say- something you put in a pan to bake that's liquid at first- but then comes out solid. So - casting "balls" and dots- where it was formed as a solid sphere from the "baking"'- usually around the edges... pockets that make "pits"'or pitting that can't be explained really as anything other than air trapped in a cast mold. Other cast flaws can include lines,ridges, or depressions that are evenly drawn throughout a piece, that indicate a flaw in the mold. It looks like a bundt cake, basically. Die flaws also exist though- where a die has worn, or has an imperfection- overstrikes and understrikes, kind of like the flaws you see in coin collecting.

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These are from casting. (Imo) - and by the way, there's a disagreement as to whether these rings were in fact cast during the period. I, myself, do not believe they were. Many others, experts included - disagree.

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thanks mike! makes total sense. thanks for explaining that and the diagram helped. always wondered that but never asked. cheers!


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If one member said that the ring is good and next member follows with ring is not good, then that member should follow with the picture of the same pattern ring and compare it with the ring that started the thread and point out the differences.
If you search history of this forum you will not find another ring like this so based upon what are we making our conclusions. We have to be constructive my last three good original rings have been attacked by same people , if Ado is not welcomed here no problem i will stop 🛑 !

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Everyone is welcome here. Accepting criticism or hearing opinions without jumping to conclusions is all part of the study of artifacts leading to the truth. I try to qualify all of my opinions with "imo"or "imho" for precisely this purpose. I wanted to illustrate and underline the possibility of what I see as cast marks (I could be wrong) with what I think could be a good ring, based on my observation of expert opinions differing in construction methods of acceptable rings. In fact, even as I do not believe that period casting occurred, some extremely knowledgeable men here on this forum, of whose opinion I deeply respect, disagree with this very thought. Yet we can still have intelligent discussions on the subject. I would say only if you are unwilling or unable to do the same that the forum isn't for you. Some opinions are tough to hear, no doubt- but I firmly believe they have the right to be heard.

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Compare rings and advert.

cats1.jpg (208.9 KB, 365 downloads)
Last edited by odal; 04/18/2017 07:26 PM.

�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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Great pictures man!!

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nice ring gotz! and exactly like the period advert


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ado Offline
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I see the same two dots below under the bottom jaw yours and mine same location

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glad i dont care about skull rings! seems hard to tell if its period or not.


By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.
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Originally Posted By: ado
I see the same two dots below under the bottom jaw yours and mine same location


For me 2 fakes from the same source. Rather different to the advert.


�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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so both are fake? is the 2nd ring your ring gotz?

Last edited by goodtimes; 04/19/2017 05:32 AM.

By the skillful and sustained use of propaganda, one can make a people see even heaven as hell or an extremely wretched life as paradise.
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Originally Posted By: goodtimes
so both are fake? is the 2nd ring your ring gotz?


In my opinion yes, both are fakes and no, it belongs not to me.
Only the catalog with the Fitting advert is mine.

I think you know how close the drawings in the catalogs to the real rings usually are.

Last edited by odal; 04/19/2017 07:19 AM.

�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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@ado, first of all, you should be glad if serious collectors, and here are several of them, dont "attack" your ring(s) but TRY to safe your hard earned money FOR YOU! It is just a TRY, you for yourself can decide about your ring(s).
Imho, instead of soiling them you should at least lead a civilized discussion or -better- thank them!

Second, Gaspare did NOT say the ring is a good, period one. You have to read what exactly he has said:
Originally Posted By: Gaspare
a super rare pattern ring.. I have a interwar period advert for it!
This one,,not too bad looking to me!


Regards,



wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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The certain ring, as odal has marked already, has several clear and typical casting marks.
Regards,

1.JPG (105.42 KB, 444 downloads)
2.JPG (91.12 KB, 444 downloads)
3.JPG (79.19 KB, 441 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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And it seems that the ring, from which the casting was done, has been enlarged by a jeweler which seems -what I can see from the pics- 1.) has not the proper material traces (as it is cast) and 2.) has lead to certain additional "borders" due to casting.
There is also something what looks like a, for this case, simple, improper "seam".
Interestingly the enlargement has been camouflaged by slanting lines.
Regards,

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4a.JPG (87.41 KB, 434 downloads)
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4c.JPG (116.95 KB, 436 downloads)

wotan, gd.c-b#105

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So, finally, if you are not a supporter of the (wrong) theorie that period rings are cast, my opinion ist that the ring shown by you is unfortunately a clearly cast, postwar fake.
Btw, I did not mention and mark the several casting pearls...
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
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Thanks for that input, very interesting, now I can see the lines better, myself!
Always learn something here... btw I don't remember many times -if any- that the experts here were wrong or far off, they certainly know what they're talking about!

I know it's not nice to find out that a ring you just bought is a fake, for all kinds of reasons... you sorta want to believe it's real and you look for reasons why it might be.

But 1. the long time collectors here, well, have a lot of experience, and 2. have no reason to lie to you that I could see.

But it's weird: I have seen people have what nearly amounts to a nervous breakdown online simply because their rings have been criticized...

I think if you can't handle the potential possibility that you got a phony, maybe you shouldn't post the ring?
Just my thinking.

I for one appreciate the help, support and expertise we can all earn from here.
Mark

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If we take any originality ring and want to find some imperfections there will always be something we don't like or that looks suspicious.

Both rings posted with advert are fake? Well, they don't even look the same! Look at the eyes sockets look at the detail and patina on mine (i know you will say patina can be artificial)

Second, We can search all the ring forums and have very hard time finding this type of ring.

And finally, I see all the imperfections and "cast marks" circled in red on my ring but no one is showing me how original same pattern ring should look like and to indicate and compare same those red circles so that we can see the difference between the two rings.
But no one can do that because not a lot of collectors have this pattern ring in their collection, which poses another question; why don't we see more of these fakes out there?

I already received couple of messages from well known ring collectors to buy this ring, hmmm i wonder why.

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To be fair. Ado doesn't post this ring for opinions. He only outed himself as the buyer.
Otherwise he should accept others opinions, that's how a community works.

Last edited by odal; 04/19/2017 04:16 PM.

�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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Odal, with all due respect...opinions are just opinions and opinions do not prove anything. In this case (and all other cases) only images which we lack can prove something, so what we need is a photos of the accepted " original" of this same pattern ring and to compare side by side with all the yellow and red circles that have been indicated on my ring.

Because this is not common ring that we see on daily, monthly or yearly basis this is extremely rare ring and if you search this forum you will not find another ring like this posted for review. So based upon what are we posting our opinions that my ring is fake when we did not compare to the " original" example and when lot of collectors do not even have this ring in their collection.

I am asking again like i have asked before can someone please post the "Original" ring of this pattern next to mine and let's compare the differences as indicated.

And until that happens i am sorry, but my ring is Original!


Thank you
Ado


Last edited by ado; 04/20/2017 12:20 AM.
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I wrote Ado,,if it wasn't a fortune I would have taken a chance on this ring. IF even just to study..
As far as the photo VS the drawing. Yes, there are small differences,,BUT. it is just a line drawing. They many times are different,,no big deal..
This pattern was made for just a short while that I could deduct. Rare and real pattern as the period ad we see,,there are others too.

And grin,,casting, dots, wavy lines etc.. One time years ago here a ring was shown and fast called a cast because of 2 dots.. I wrote the guy and he brought it to the SOS,,they were just debris,,the ring was fine...

The REAL problem,,is the Tucan hallmark! [Austria if I remember correctly] , and matches the correct time period!! It is a stamp in. SO,,either someone has the real tool,,or had one made up [unlikely but has been done before'.. This ring has age to it,,would love to study it in hand.. These digi microscopes,,you can get a decent one for like $40.!,,they plug right in your PC/Laptop,,great for studys.!

Please guys,, rings get damaged a nick. Over the years and wear they get bigger and rounder etc. Rough spots,,could just be a unpolished area in die.. I'm just explaining for all rings in general. some of us are over cautious, some like to take chances.. I think all beginners should stic to good common rings first. The enamel RAD, a WestWall, a basic skull. Get them study them , get used to the quality. Also,,if your parents are older or from WW2 era, OR your grandparents and they have a lot of jewelry,,take a look at the pieces. Even IF a necklace, cufflinks etc. get a good look at the quality! or sometimes!!, the lack of it and that it is still authentic!

Last edited by Gaspare; 04/20/2017 01:17 AM.
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Just catching up on old threads here,thought I'd put my two cents in. Everyone brought up good points, the ring is definitely poorly made, and has had a hard life. There are a lot of what look like cast marks to me, but Mike brought up a valid point about die flaws/weak dies/defects during stamping. My father collected coins for many years, and die flaws happen more frequently than you may think. But I agree with Gaspare, the REAL trouble is that hallmark. It is Austrian, indicating 800 silver content and Klagenfurt make. It was put in use in the early twenties, and it is stamped in. Sure looks legit to me when compared to other examples. So either someone has the original hallmark or made a copy of one...or it was period made. Imho, that is a bit of an oddball stamp to use or copy, although it could be done. I would like to examine it better under a loupe, but personally I would take a chance if it wasn't a lot of money.

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Just a little remark.
The pic with the drawing is from a german catalog.


�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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Originally Posted By: DAK1941
There are a lot of what look like cast marks to me, but Mike brought up a valid point about die flaws/weak dies/defects during stamping.


die flaws and stamping defects can not be misinterpret with casting defects, they are way diferent. I somewhere posted here on forum examples of worn dies, cracked dies etc.


There are less original rings than you think, much less...

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I will try to find and pin that thread, hap- I remember that! Members, if you get a chance- hap was awarded the "great thread" badge for his exposition of dies and presses- pictures and details explaining exactly how many of
Our favorite patterns were constructed. Like I said "you have to know what you're looking for"- since hapur makes rings the traditional die struck way- I always look closely at his opinion- he knows what he's looking for! No one is right all the time, but guys- everyone's opinions here have value. Skulls, the hardest, the toughest. It's probably best NOT to get bitten with the black bug of skull ring collecting! By the way, to make it all MORE difficult- cast or struck- these rings were all cut and sized and hand finished by jewelers who Tried to remove/cover up flaws of any kind- so they would present a nice piece for purchase!

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