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Baz69 Online Content OP
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There are many ways to acquire daggers nowadays, you can go to a show where you can pick the dagger up and satisfy yourself of its originality, you can buy a dagger from another collector/friend more than likely youll either get to see it before you buy it or have a short time frame to satisfy yourself of the authenticity, you can buy from a website and if the dealer is decent enough youll get a chance to make sure its OK, the tricky way to buy anything is by an Auction especially when you cannot actually go to it and see the item yourself, what are you left with, usually some crappy photos and a one line description, certainly most auctions over here are not enamoured with 3rd Reich items, they take them in and move them on, there are though some auctions where dealers try to sell there fake ********, most of us over here who buy through auctions know which auction houses they are and stay well away from them. Occasionally though youll get an item pop up on an auction house list, it may even have more than a one line description, it might even offer a way of verifying some of the facts or at least go someway into helping you come to a conclusion.
Heres an Auction Description that I found

A Third Reich Army Dagger with pebbled finish scabbard, double etched blade by Carl Julius Krebs Solingen

Condition Report:
Owned by the vendors father who we understand was in the 6th Airbourne Division and obtained the item during the Allied advance to the Elbe at the Village of Ulzen from the home of a high ranking German Officer who had been at Stalingrad where he was severely wounded.

With this description was a number of very fuzzy pictures, in my opinion they were not good enough to determine authenticity of this dagger, it looked good but I was certainly far from 100% convinced. I asked for a few better pictures of both sides of the blade and received them, they confirmed that everything about the dagger was of 3rd Reich origin. I wanted to make sure that the dagger had the parts you would expect on a Krebs army, generally generic fittings, a plated blade and most especially the style and position of the makers mark, everything was as expected, it even had a pair of Deluxe hangers and a very worn knot.

Now to confirm the vendors statement regarding the 6th Airbourne Division, was it in fact anywhere near the Elbe, did it go through the town of Ulzen, after some investigation I found that the 6th Airborne Division was made up of the 3rd and 5th Parachute Brigades and the 6th Airlanding Brigade. It is the 6th Airlanding Brigade which comprised the most heavily armed men in the British army that we need to concentrate on, after reading the records on this Brigade, just a few days after their attack and capture of Steinhuder Meer on 10th April 1945 I found that they did indeed go through Ulzen, following the capture of Ulzen they then captured Lneburg and by 2nd May had reached the River Elbe, it was only a few days later after crossing the Elbe they made contact with the leading elements of the Russian army advancing from the east.

Why go to all the trouble of confirming the veterans account when everything looked OK with the dagger, I have always though that some due diligence should be performed wherever possible and especially when there is some information to go on, no harm in checking the facts especially because of this particular daggers make up, any dagger with a double etched blade is going to cost and its probably not going to be cheap especially in an auction where its easy to get carried away.

I decided to act on the above information and have a go at buying the dagger, I know what your all thinking "Buy the dagger but not the story" it's the mantra we all say to each other, Ill let you guys decide if I bought well or not and I do not think in this case it has much to do with the value!!!!!!
I always try to keep an open mind regarding any dagger, I'm not one for dismissing a dagger because its not textbook, I try and research everything I can when I have the time prior to purchasing, in this case I asked myself if there is anyway this blade could fit in with the army, perhaps there is an answer but I'll need to research a while longer to confirm my suspicions, perhaps some of you guys can help out, has anybody come across anything like this before?.

Gary

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Well!!!
Looks like a Luftwaffe eagle on a Army dagger.
I'm not sure about that. But I'm not a expert.
Ed

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Gary, I am no etch pro either, but the Luft bird on a Heer.. and it is the variety without the laurel sprigs under the wings along with the "Gonzo" looking beak will raise eyebrows. The fittings and scabbard look fine to me paired with a Krebs though. Lets hear more opinions.. Best, Kevin.


It's ALL in the DETAILS!!.......
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I'm sorry but I don't think the etch is original. For me this type of etch is a typical post war variant that I have seen many times. Always on luftwaffe daggers. I even had one myself with a Paul Weyersberg makermark on it. I bought it when I started collecting and had no knowledge of the quality of the fakes that were produced. This is the first time I see it on an army dagger.

Regards
Danny

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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I completely understand everybody's thoughts on the blade etch but this exact blade etch is shown in TW's luft book on Pg 254, it's also shown on a dagger that John Zeller owns, it might not have the blued panel but it is the same eagle and etch pattern, each dagger has to be looked at individually, I can assure you the quality of the whole piece is fantastic, I own a number of etched pieces and it matches exactly with the quality of the others. Why would anybody put it in an army dagger?, it would be much better to have put it in luft fittings if you are going to fake it, I have seen many fake etched lufts and army's this does not come close. As usual because this does not conform to the norm it is dismissed.
If you look at the position of the maker mark you'll see it is way down the blade almost under the crossguard, if anybody can show me another Krebs army that has the mark this far down I'll be very interested to see it, the mark is stamped and not etched which would in my opinion be very difficult to fake, anybody seen another faked Krebs mark?. These are all questions you have to ask yourself to help determine authenticity.
Pictured is the standard position of the krebs mark on an army(courtesy of Oleg). To dismiss this etch you would have to have found a Krebs blade with the mark in the lower position and then etched it.?????? Hmm , the faker must have had a lucky find.

Gary

Oleg 1.jpg (154.78 KB, 234 downloads)
Last edited by Baz69; 02/27/2017 05:19 PM.
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This same forum, 5 subjects down, Carl J Krebs. There were Krebs maker marks down the blade near the crossguard that had plain blades with no etching. These daggers always keep us rethinking. I was always under the impression the GOOSE like eagle was a bad sign. It surely does not go on a Army dagger, IMHO.
Ed

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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Ed
Yes I started that thread prior to buying the dagger and yes Johnny Z does show a luft dagger with the maker mark lower but it is not the same mark and is on a luft, I'm specifically looking for an army dagger with this mark stamped low down. I also am aware that in some cases you can swap a luft and army blade but I do not think thus is the case here. If you look at this specific mark and the position it was placed there specifically because they had to etch the blade.

Gary

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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The one question that keeps coming up and it was expected is why is there a luft eagle on an army dagger, it's probably the most pertinent question that can be asked, it doesn't seem to make sense but there are always exceptions to the rule, if you have John Angolia's book on Military awards of the 3rd Reich on page 179 and 180 there is a picture of an army observer that was seconded into the luftwaffe, he was allowed to keep part of his army uniform and allowed to wear his army dagger, some of these observers were in the luftwaffe for quite sometime, I find it "possible" that one of these guys might have ordered his army dagger with a luft etched blade or perhaps any etch for these observers was to be produced without the sprigs, I don't know that but it might be possible, it's just an example of some of the strange things that went on, these things cannot be proved and I am in no way saying it did happen but it's another case for not dismissing this dagger outright.

Gary

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Gary I just looked at my two Carl Army's, and they are both the normal further down the blade. The observer story sure is something that I believe could be the case. One has to remember that these daggers were not prized collector items at the time, but just a dress item. Probably not as important to some as a ammo pouch to a infantryman. I am sure stranger things have happened to these daggers back then. Everything aside, it's a Carl J Krebs, how can you go wrong, my fav maker. Ed

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I still am convinced that this etch is not period. Just look at the bird. There's no way the germans would design such an ugly "gonzo-style" bird. Like I said, it's a known fake pattern, seen on many (sometimes original) daggers. Here are a just a few examples of the same fake etch.
I'm also not convinced that the maker mark is not etched together with the bird-etch. This would explain why it's that high up the blade. I have had one of these fake etched pieces in hand and I can tell you, the quality is outstanding.

bl2.jpg (52.2 KB, 150 downloads)
blade1.jpg (18.58 KB, 150 downloads)
DSCN1959.jpg (115.05 KB, 149 downloads)
etch2.jpg (55.16 KB, 150 downloads)
luft%20dagger.jpg (64.32 KB, 150 downloads)
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Baz69 Online Content OP
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Danny

Very informative and thank you for posting all of these etches, whilst it's obvious that there are similarities I still am convinced that the dagger I have is original, as I mentioned in my original post the maker mark is stamped and it is not etched, it's small enough to fit on the flat of the blade as you would expect of any stamped mark. I believe that each dagger should be examined individually and they should not all be lumped into some convenient group because they exhibit similar traits. I know there are many fake etched blades out there and I've seen many myself, I just do not believe that this is one of them just because it exhibits traits of other so called fake blades.
Please explain to me the position of the mark on my blade, IT's STAMPED, all of the other Krebs blades I have seen the mark is placed much higher. I certainly do not believe that all so called "Gonzo" eagles are fakes, it's so easy to dismiss genuine pieces because they are all lumped together as fakes.
Gary

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Thanks for your reply Gary. It has been a nice polite discussion, just the way it should be.

Regards
Danny

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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Just seen this etch from one of John Z's etched bayonets, no doubt this is period.
I hope John does not mind me borrowing his picture.

Gary

Gonzo etch eagle.jpg (39.62 KB, 163 downloads)
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Gary, you have earned a pass on this one after finding and presenting two rare and neat daggers to me in the last 6 months. wink

Yep, I can see the similarities.

Here are various Luft eagles that I own on etched bayonets.

Etch Front.JPG (39.8 KB, 125 downloads)
Etch Rear.JPG (40.33 KB, 124 downloads)
Obverse Etch Front.JPG (38.86 KB, 125 downloads)
Obverse Etch rear.JPG (40.92 KB, 124 downloads)
Etch Front 1.JPG (39.7 KB, 125 downloads)
Etch Rear 1.JPG (41.87 KB, 123 downloads)
Obverse Etch Front 1.JPG (38.6 KB, 124 downloads)
Etch Mid.JPG (39.62 KB, 124 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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And, here are Luft eagles on Luft2 daggers.

Obverse Etch Mid Luft Eagle.JPG (40.02 KB, 124 downloads)
Obverse Etch Mid.JPG (40.09 KB, 124 downloads)
Obverse Etch Mid Eagle.JPG (40.74 KB, 123 downloads)
Obverse Etch Mid 1.JPG (39.83 KB, 124 downloads)
Obverse Etch Mid2.JPG (41.57 KB, 123 downloads)
Obverse Etch Middle.JPG (41.38 KB, 124 downloads)
Eagle.JPG (39.94 KB, 123 downloads)
Obverse Etch Mid 3.JPG (38.99 KB, 123 downloads)
Obverse Etch Mid 4.JPG (39.55 KB, 123 downloads)

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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Baz69 Online Content OP
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Thank you John, I think this conclusively proves that the "Gonzo" type bird was used during the period, I have always believed it to be the case, it's just so easy to dismiss every dagger that comes along just because it exhibits similar traits to known fake daggers.
I do not think we will ever solve the mystery of why it has a luft eagle on an army dagger, not conclusively anyway, I'm still open to opinions.

Gary

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I have seen an example in a sheet of the manufacturing Heer "Clemen and Jung, Solingen" although I could not say for sure whether it is period or postwar.



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I have read col atwoods book " The daggers and edged weapons of Hitlers Germany" and his fascinating discoveries. IMHO the "Gonzo beak" pattern is an early etched pattern used during ww2 which was one of the patterns fakers later copied. I have heard that Spanish copies of third reich daggers are excellent so it makes sense that they were copied from existing known parts. It only makes sense that actual patterns for ww2 etches would by copied to sell these fakes. Forgers would not make up their own pattern, or they would go broke lol. My opinion is that the gonzo bird was a real ww2 pattern.

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Baz69 Online Content OP
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You just have to look at the etches posted here to know the etch pattern was used, for sure they were used as a pattern for the fakers but there are original daggers out there using this etch.
Gary


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