Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 4
D
dagr596 Offline OP
OP Offline
D
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 4
Hi, I am new to this forum. The members here have some really nice daggers, and I love reading about the history tied to some of the examples Iíve seen.

I don't have much history to tell about mine. I picked up this early SA dagger at a garage sale several months ago and that's about all I know about it's history. I found it in a box that looked like it hadn't been touched in at least 30 years if that helps at all.

I have spent some time online learning about my dagger and trying to pin down a value for it (so I can eventually sell it), but I have hit a bit of a roadblock. My scabbard has a throat fitting design that I have never seen in other online SA scabbard images. I'm wondering if anyone here possibly knows anything about why mine is different and what that means? From looking around this forum and from my research on other SA dagger websites I have been able to figure out the following about my dagger/scabbard:

1- Early style with solid nickel crossguards = pre RZM
2- "Wm" stamp on lower crossguard indicates it was made in Westmark
3- My finial ball is relatively undamaged which is good in terms of value. There is no indication it has been reshaped in any way.
4- I have not done anything to clean it, and all the patina appears to be correct for itsí age, so if my scabbard throat is in fact a replacement part it must be from a very long time ago?
5- My pommel nut shows no tool marks, disrupted patina, etc.
6- I donít see any identification marks on the scabbard connecting ring, strap, buckle, or clip.
7- The blade has a makerís mark of a rectangle with an arrow inside it (pointing to the right) and then the name ďF. DickĒ. I havenít been able to find much related to this maker mark other than it indicates an early manufacturing date.
8- The roundel on the handle has some green oxidation on it, but all of the enamel appears to still be there.
9- The acid etching on my blade remains crisp and easy to read.
10- There is a dent in the side of the scabbard but it appears to have been there a long time because the rust within the dent matches the rest of the scabbardís patina.
11- The blade tip is not dented or bent.
12- The handle has a nice tight fit everywhere except for where it meets one side of the lower crossguard. There is a slight gap visible at that location as well as a small piece of the handle wood missing.
13- The eagle insignia appears well made with tightly carved handle wood around itsí perimeter.



Last edited by dagr596; 07/08/2016 08:36 PM.
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,388
Likes: 17
Online Content
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,388
Likes: 17
Good analysis and good dagger.

The maker is F. Dick of Essligen am Nekar in Wurttemberg.

A correction: The dagger was distributed in the Westmark SA region but made in Esslingen.

The copper band and ring are not original but a really cool looking fix. I expect the original somehow pulled out and the fellow who repaired it was really talented.

Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,404
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,404
A piece with a lot of character. Thanks for showing it.

--dj--Joe

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 4
D
dagr596 Offline OP
OP Offline
D
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 4
Thanks for the correction and the information regarding the scabbard throat fitting Dave. In a way I am happier to hear it's most likely a well-done repair instead of being a replacement throat fitting cannibalized from a different dagger scabbard design (what I was thinking originally).

The character of this dagger is growing on me. I have always preferred used looking items over pristine specimens, because there's more to wonder about where its' been. I might end up keeping it for a while so I can learn a little more about the history behind German daggers and World War 2 before selling it to someone else.

Last edited by dagr596; 07/10/2016 02:09 AM.
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,388
Likes: 17
Online Content
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 14,388
Likes: 17
Dagr,

There is active rust on the blade and the scabbard that should be stopped. The purists here will suggest you buy a can of Renaissance Wax which is a museum conservators wax. Good stuff but $17.00 or more for a can. Any paste wax will do in a pinch. Add a light coat, gently polish it off then do it again. Ang again. You will be surprised the crap that comes off on the rag!

Second point is that the 'patina' is most likely nicotine. I am guessing that the The dagger was hung on a wall of someone who smoked. They also left it on the wall while painting with white paint ... you can see the splatter at the top of the grip.

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 4,959
Likes: 9
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 4,959
Likes: 9
I agree with what has been said, nice looking dagger with a lot of character & an interesting fix as well. Initially I thought the coloring on the fittings was gilt but looked closer & it definitely resembles nicotine patination, just adds to the character IMHO.


GDC Gold Badge #290
GDC Silver Badge #310
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,994
Offline
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,994
Nice!

Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 4
D
dagr596 Offline OP
OP Offline
D
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 4
Thanks for the advice everyone. I just had a can of Renaissance Wax delivered, and I will do like you mentioned and wax the blade and the brown part of the scabbard to stop the active rust. I will probably leave everything else as is so I don't rub off the patina that I like. Nicotine patination is likely spot on. I found the dagger in a vintage storage box covered in dust, but I could tell the house had been occupied by heavy smokers for a long time.

The white spots are interior wall paint. There were originally three times as many, but most popped off easily with a quick flick of my fingernail. I didn't want to risk damaging the wood or the patina so I left the more firmly stuck spots there for now.

Last edited by dagr596; 08/12/2016 07:24 PM.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,994
Offline
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,994
596 I can not believe how many 3rd Reich daggers have those wee paint spots. See it all the time!
definitely a sign of authenticity eek

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,674
P
Offline
P
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,674
i was told by a old helmet collector that those little white spots were spider excrement. what do you guys think. paul

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 720
Offline
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 720
Great looking uncleaned early SA !!

love that bespoke copper made ring attachment, cool !!!


Regards Mac 66.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
Offline
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,054
I've seen those white spots quite a few times as well. Based on the somewhat even distribution pattern, and some difficulty to get off, I suspect paint spots as well.


John Merling vintagetime@yahoo.com
MAX Life member
OVMS Life member(Ohio Valley Military Society SOS)
OGCA Life member(Ohio Gun Collectors Assoc)
NRA Life member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,674
P
Offline
P
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,674
if they are paint how come they are always white and almost always the same size. paul

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,885
Offline
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,885
spider poop is black.
white spots from the fine spray that comes off a roller when you are painting your ceiling are normally white and uniform in size and we have all had to clean them up after painting with a roller.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286
Offline
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,286
Roller and brush spray can carry a great distance, I know because I'm still finding it in odd places 3 years after a repaint in the living room!

The band looks nice and tight and would have served the SA man well...I am not sure if individual components for SA daggers would have been readily available from retailers/manufacturers (if at all..) Moreover, a replacement scabbard would have been pricey during the period for those of limited means (remember, not all SA men were paid...)


Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,876
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,876
Likes: 1
This is a factory ground Rohm dagger also.


MAX CHARTER MEMBER

LIFE MEMBER OVMS
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,692
Likes: 1
I agree with Ron with this being a Factory refinish Rohm . The SA Gruppe Mark "Wm" "Sw" and "He" ..were all used in Rohm and Non Rohm Production.

Depending how well the grain refinish was performed..you might be able to see a little swagger of the blade spine looking down towards the tip not being perfectly straight..but you must look carefully.

of special note also seen below is a Ground Rohm with the logo close to the crossguard as seen with many other Rohm blades except for a certain few that didnt not move the logo.

Pay no mind to the grip to crossguard fit....but the blade logo in study. A great percentage of grips from this producer were of a dark wood.

Regards Larry

dick.jpg (24.45 KB, 84 downloads)

Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,207,673 SS Bayonets
1,704,359 Teno Insignia Set
1,071,914 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
SS Chain - Real or fake?
by Cevin - 10/26/2021 02:37 AM
Inherited Luft. Real or Fake please?
by Cevin - 10/26/2021 01:03 AM
Inherited RADs. Real or Fake please?
by Cevin - 10/26/2021 12:40 AM
HJ Boxed Leaders Dagger
by Mauser88 - 10/25/2021 08:57 PM
Police Knot?
by Fitzer - 10/25/2021 07:42 PM
Latest New Posts
HJ Boxed Leaders Dagger
by Mauser88 - 10/26/2021 11:32 PM
Police Knot?
by Fitzer - 10/26/2021 10:31 PM
Inherited Luft. Real or Fake please?
by Billy G. - 10/26/2021 10:01 PM
Inherited RADs. Real or Fake please?
by Cevin - 10/26/2021 08:25 PM
SS Chain - Real or fake?
by Cevin - 10/26/2021 02:37 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics30,923
Posts320,481
Members7,027
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
10 members (Mikee, Mauser88, Vern, Billy G., Jonesy, Documentalist, Stud, James LeBrasseur, Fitzer, Cevin), 45 guests, and 79 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5