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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 130
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OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 130 |
Dear collectors,
Like many of you I have in the past come across the theory of the gilded Heer General Officer's daggers. (More accurately a gold wash, than actual gold plated). The space given to this type of dagger in TW's reference work was so brief that I figured these are very rare, and/or spurious pieces that have been gilded post 1945.
Well, today something funny happened to me. I have long wanted to obtain an original Klaas Heer dagger with white painted grip, that is black trillion underneath: before the paint is rubbed off and it becomes a 1st Model Railway dagger, worth several times more!! Well last week I noticed a Klaas Heer on a website, that was very reasonably priced, and had what I thought from the photos was a white painted, black underneath, grip. I bought it, and it arrived with me today.
I was mildly disappointed when I immediately discovered that the grip was white inside and out. I also noticed that someone recently had given the dagger a good going over with simichrome or brasso, or some other polish. A real shame in more ways than one.
Then as I looked more closely I couldn't help but notice a slightly gold hue, especially evident on the scabbard. I took some photographs with a large lens, and these show what I believe to be definite gilding to all the metal parts. 'Gilding' as opposed to gold plating, which is far harder and durable.
I have seen many silver-gilt medals in the past that oxidise and turn black. It is no wonder that some people have mercilessly polished a blackened her dagger not realising that they are rubbing off all of the gilding. I believe this may have happened to my recent acquisition.
Could other more seasoned collectors please let me know what they think, and if this is indeed a General's gold dagger? It would be a fortunate turn of events if this was the case!
Best regards to all.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 130
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OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 130 |
Please see the gilt in the feathering above.
Last edited by Arminius; 05/03/2016 07:30 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 130
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OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 130 |
Above are traces of gilt on the ferrule, and the scabbard band. Please note the hand enhanced acorns on the join, instead of Klaas's usual asterisks.
Last edited by Arminius; 05/03/2016 07:36 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,647 Likes: 2
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,647 Likes: 2 |
Arminius.. Looks to me like a Heer dagger with a nicotine patina from hanging on the wall in the Vet's card room. Scabbard is a WKC product and has the WKC typical lacquer and single side screw in place. Best, Kevin.
It's ALL in the DETAILS!!.......
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 130
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OP
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 130 |
Thanks Kevin. Why do daggers turn up with scabbards by different makers to the rest? Was there some supply cooperation during the period or is this often a post war thing?
I also thought the staining was nicotine at first. But on closer inspection it really looks like gilding. I could test it perhaps.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Arminius:
There was some selling of parts between makers... WKC for one sold a lot of parts for example and there is the famous bill of sale from WKC to Eickhorn pictured in one of Tom Johnson's books. As stated above by Kevin, Pack also seems to have sold to a number of small cottage manufacturers early on in the game.
And, of course, post war, there was a lot of swapping around of parts, especially scabbards by people who did not at that time have the knowledge to know that these were not actually produced that way. I think that many of these swaps were made to upgrade the appearance the the quality of the dagger without realizing that it was no longer original as manufactured.
So, some configurations are accepted today as being ok (ie WKC parts on certain maker marked non WKC daggers) and some are not (ie SMF parts on an Eickhorn dagger).
This forum is the place to post and ask these questions.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
The "gold" officer's daggers German Army and Luftwaffe - something that gets discussed from time to time here is one GDC thread about the topic: GDC "gold" officer's dagger There also should be a link to period documentation that states that while there were special gold hangers for general/ranking officers, the daggers themselves were standard models. (I don't have a link to the regulation/order at the moment with the search function and myself not always getting along.) With the "gold" or "gilt" or whatever - IMO a gold colored zinc chromate pre-finish that is not a paint used by some makers to combat a specific type of zinc corrosion before applying another type of finish that also applies as an industrial practice to many of the period hangers. With actual gold plating (postwar) seen in the posted thread, and the occasional gold painted examples also to be found in circulation - here is a link to a current product using the zinc chromate metal finish. yellow (golden) color zinc chromate bolts With a topic for another day the so-called 1st model Railway daggers that from discussions elsewhere have no discernible period basis - instead being attributed to the late James Atwood. Best Regards, Fred
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Joined: Oct 2001
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Joined: Oct 2001
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I'm not sure the "gold dagger" question has been adequately settled. I have seen one in a dagger hard case that was beautiful, with mild patina about 30 years ago. Not bright and shiny, but a subdued gold. I believe the collector told me he bought it from one of the" big dealers." That in itself, of course, does not guarantee the gold was applied during the appropriate period. It's always difficult to tell from photos, but the gilding here looks like it could be the "fire gilt" seen on navy daggers. I suspect the dagger worn by most general officers was the standard one with silver finish. I also do not doubt the gold finished hanger hardware on hangers is correct. But, generals often skirt regulations because they can. Look at some of Patton's outfits. And there is "Sepp" Dietrich's non-regulation gold insignia and the bayonet he carried. There are numerous period photos depicting non-regulation dress by German officers and others. Some bordering on the wild side. I think it is probably the gold daggers were not in any catalog, but might have been "unofficial" special order items. Knowing the huge egos of many senior officers, ordering or being presented a gold dagger is not that far-fetched. Proof positive? Absolutely not. But, certainly within the realm of possibility. I have never owned a gold-finished example and, if I located one, I would not pay a premium price for it, just to be safe. But, I wouldn't totally discount the possibility of it being from the WWII era.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Joined: Dec 2001
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General Patton is an often cited officer who did things his own way, and I certainly don't question that some in the ranks of TR personalities did things their own way such as Göring - not having a problem that there could be some exceptions. But I also think that the numbers of surviving so-called gold or golden daggers greatly outnumbers the pool of officers who were in a high enough position to “do things their own way”. Which has allowed some individuals to charge a much higher price for such items, that should IMO be sold at a lower price as “damaged goods”, because all or at least a large proportion of the original factory finish is no longer present for one reason or another.
Here are some more images that are not necessarily in order: 1) period fire gilt on an early sword blade 2) a later period very slightly worn fire gilt high quality lion head 3) a 2nd model Luftwaffe with an aluminum hilt and crossgquard, with its zinc grip collar and zinc plated steel scabbard with the original zinc phosphate worn away (or removed) exposing a zinc chromate pre-finish 4) zinc dagger hanger components showing either a matte gray zinc phosphate, or zinc chromate in the recesses with the bare metallic zinc worn bright on the high spots (the GO hangers are a different gold color) 5) a Luftwaffe snap assembly showing that unlike actual gold plating, the zinc chromates (which are not metallic gold) can become dull and/or be a different color. Best Regards, Fred
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In the early 90's I nought a gold washed or fire gilted Army Dagger. I was never 100% comfortable with it. Somewhere, I have pictures of it. If I can find them, I'll post them. After a few years I sold it back to the person I bought it from, never seen it since. I've seen a few others, slightly different finishes than mine. Were any of the original? Who knows.
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