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ajax #319225 06/10/2016 04:58 AM
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No, they are all bad period. And, it seems like they been around for quite a while.
Some collectors have nobody to return them too! I mean if you bought one 5 years ago or so at a show from a regular table guy that's it, your beat no return. I've heard a dealer or 2 did a 50/50, 50% cash and 50% merch.. It's really not the dealers fault,,they're going by the dude that wrote the books CoA!
I guess if you have one with a little thinner you could take the dec off. Then shop around for a NOS decal of any branch of service whistle,,ha ha, only kidding..
Dam shame,,there's not one area of this hobby that's safe and you can get some enjoyment.. Well, helmets were getting a bit overpriced anyway............


Last edited by Gaspare; 06/10/2016 04:59 AM.
Gaspare #319240 06/10/2016 11:54 PM
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To better educate myself I took a look at the WAF thread and found something that did not make sense to me. Not the statement itself which was just reporting that the Champagne paint/decals were tested at 3% copper.

"…………………….“In this case, XRFacts "authenticated" airbrush spray painted on "decals" as being "identical" to known original SS decals except for having "3% copper" which was advanced as a reason for the "Champagne color”……………………"

Which I found really, really, interesting because in 1935 copper was documented as a restricted material very critical for the military buildup and later war effort. With most TR era blade collectors knowing that makers in Solingen in the 1930's were forced to change from the copper based metals they had been using to substitutes as the pre-existing supplies of the copper based metals were exhausted. Also the later switch from brass to steel cased ammunition a documented fact etc. etc. Did XRFacts with its own words just prove the exact opposite of what they were trying to prove?? Best Regards, Fred

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Hi Fred.. Maybe I'm misunderstanding [and don't know what XRFacts is].. They are saying: the postwar airbrushed on SS runic decals have the copper in them.

So,,all 3rd reich era helmet emblems were lacquer type applied on decals, all branches of service etc. No 3rd reich era emblems were airbrushed .

We really, from what I understand, don't know when these things accurately started popping up but when ever it was for sure postwar. A percentage of copper being in the paint would be fine.
What I don't understand is a collector/expert couldn't tell the difference between a decal applied on and airbrush sprayed. [?]

Last edited by Gaspare; 06/11/2016 04:57 AM.
Gaspare #319248 06/11/2016 05:47 AM
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Gaspare, As I understand it the X-Ray Fluorescense technology is a non-destructive method to determine the composition of an item. Something like spectroscopy, with the idea behind it being that the physical/elemental/chemical composition of items made 70 plus years ago should not have modern period substances in them and should generally conform to what was used in the target period. A long while back having seen results from a more traditional spectroscopic examination of period dagger blades that set a sort of benchmark that was compared to U.S. standards. Something that the "Chapagne" decals/paint failed because of the presence of copper. With the airbrush vs. decal IMO another matter entirely. With, as I understand it paint, an airbrush, and templates used in lieu of decals which are paint like transfers on paper which is discarded. Both having the same overall appearance after drying. With Best Regards, Fred

PS: Not having seen one for confirmation - I made the assumption that XRFacts themselves are the COA's that are being sold to 'authenticate' the "Champagne SS helmets".

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Ajax, maybe I had to write it down differently... But in no way I'm defending those that fake helmets.

I just read what all parties have to say about these specific runes.


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Originally Posted By: Panzerfaust
Ajax, maybe I had to write it down differently... But in no way I'm defending those that fake helmets.

I just read what all parties have to say about these specific runes.


Its all good, I just read the post and said wait a minute here there are no two sides because no one has countered DougB publicly. Sometimes guys like to muddy the waters, something we have seen on another forum that has not gone over well. I guess I just wanted to get in front of it just in case.

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Gaspare, As I understand it the X-Ray Fluorescense technology is a non-destructive method to determine the composition of an item. Something like spectroscopy, with the idea behind it being that the physical/elemental/chemical composition of items made 70 plus years ago should not have modern period substances in them and should generally conform to what was used in the target period. A long while back having seen results from a more traditional spectroscopic examination of period dagger blades that set a sort of benchmark that was compared to U.S. standards. Something that the "Chapagne" decals/paint failed because of the presence of copper. With the airbrush vs. decal IMO another matter entirely. With, as I understand it paint, an airbrush, and templates used in lieu of decals which are paint like transfers on paper which is discarded. Both having the same overall appearance after drying. With Best Regards, Fred

PS: Not having seen one for confirmation - I made the assumption that XRFacts themselves are the COA's that are being sold to 'authenticate' the "Champagne SS helmets".


They have essentially used whatever argument suits them based on the result of a proprietary baseline and no transparency. So where individual decals were available they were scanned and then helmets with the decal applied scanned and differences mathmatically adjusted. But no decals were available for a Champagne rune so it was shot against a helmet and then compared against a baseling of their own collections resulting in both false positives and negatives for originality on a multitude of helmets. This XRFact test was later and bought in to sell certificates and no doubt to further enforce the issue on Champagme decals which were being questioned behind the scenes... It should also be noted that helmets that failed the test and sent in were offered a purchase price to the owner of 50.00. Apparently some good helmets failed the XRFacts test.

The helmets themselves for the most part are not XRF certified and are Kelly Hicks certified and certifications increased as his publicatiions started to bulge from Champagne decal helmets with his name attached. Does not appear to matter as Kelly Hicks has expressed no interest in refunding any monies.

Last edited by ajax; 06/12/2016 05:11 AM.
ajax #319374 06/14/2016 07:13 PM
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Lessons learned - XRFacts works only if it has an accurate baseline. In this case the baseline was the spray painted "decals". Do not rely solely on a COA regardless of who issues it.


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If anyone thinks this good luck have been down the road of high end items 40 some years ago paratrooper helmets. items SS stuff you name it review it with suspicion XRFacts or whatever these crooks come up with in this day and age as far as getting a refund two words he won't. timothy

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yeah, its like the old case of the Hitler diaries! The signature was authenticated!, except the signature that was used to authenticate against was bogus to start!

Refunds? Think that would be financially impossible for some involved. But if you wrote a CoA and the item was indeed bad I would think your career as an expert would be over...

Painted on decals! That was some maestro of the airbrush!!

Gaspare #319460 06/19/2016 04:58 AM
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"What I don't understand is a collector/expert couldn't tell the difference between a decal applied on and airbrush sprayed. [?]"

Lesson #1 for an SS decal helmet expert: This is a decal.

Lesson #2: This is paint.

Lesson #3: Learn the difference.

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Nothing to discuss there a old scam Doug B the Canada SS expert proved they were painted on yrs ago see his research and smoking gun on GHWallah this fraud has been around longer than a person may think as I was warned by a old dealer in the 80's steer clear they were made up north possibly Michigan who knows? One thing for sure they are NOT ww2 regardless how many books show them! Then their is the old Tony Oliver fake SS buckles also in books with his phone no stamped in them took a lot of people including yours truly but that is another topic. timothy

Last edited by timothy downum; 04/23/2018 06:02 AM. Reason: spelling
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