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#315441 01/27/2016 10:48 PM
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Howdy folks,

Just want to start a discussion about the SS champagne rune decals. There's word going around saying that the champagne runes are post war productions. Personally I've never had a Waffen SS helmet in my hands which had the champagne runes on it. What's your thought about it?


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Oh man Gerry that /those threads on waf were totally off the rails- I have hardly seen a discussion get that heated! let's hope the better nature of the Gdc-ers once again proves itself to be above the fray. So 2 things- a. This issue of the runes is too new to me to make an opinion one way or the other, so I am officially watching this from the "ring" side seats (sorry bad pun). Secondly (b) it's a good thing this is in the helmet forum cause ur gonna need one when the shells start flying. Good luck guys. - Mike

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Cheers Mike! Yeah I know, things got a bit out of hand in regards to this topic on other forums. We'll be ok here...totally different public on GD.

In the mean time I've been emailing with Kelly Hicks and this is part of his email:

Removed so that Mr. Hicks can post his own thoughts. See 2 posts below:

Last edited by Dave; 01/28/2016 04:03 AM. Reason: Let Mr. Hicks speak for himself

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hi panzerfaust
very intresting topic these ss champagne helmets vintage started in the 1970s i read every page as thay say some has kelly hicks certifications he states real of the period . i believe if i am correct acording to the ss helmet forum there at whermach one helmet collector bought one off ruptured duck and bill imediatly gave half cash back the rest in trade the cost of the helmet in question was 8,000 u.s.d. outher helmet collectors bought some of these sprayed ss decal helmets and they were in thier collections for years . next month the sos show in kentucky probly will be some mad n discusted ss helmet collectors who was burned in the amount of 8,000-15,000 u.s.d. i can say this i would also be mad sure hope they can work this out honesty is the best policy best andy militarynut

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You're absolutely right Andy. Honesty is indeed the best policy in our hobby.
Yeah I'm kinda curious to see what's going to happen at the SOS...

Last edited by Panzerfaust; 01/28/2016 02:30 AM.

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I edited a post above so that Mr. Hicks can speak for himself.

I read the topic on WAF and if it gets going here, I want first hand information posted.

Dave

Dave #315467 01/28/2016 11:44 AM
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hi panzerfaust
in the mid 1950s jerry lee lewis made a song intitled theres a whole lot of shaken going on . there will be a lot of shaking going on at the sos show next month like i said before getting screwed in the tune of 8,000-15,000 not a good feeling im sure you agree most guys will be looking to get thier hard earned money back lets see how many honest dealers that sold these bogus helmets give back thier customers money with out squirming and giving useless excuses plus getting nasty with thier customers . best they take what dealer bill shea ruptured duck did imediatly money back no questions asked hey he sold the bogus helmet why not thats what an honest dealer should do and live up to his honest reputation as the dealer . i have been in this great hobby for over fifty years my reputation and my word is everything to me with out it i am nothing i dont have these problems never did but we shall see hope n pray it all works out peacfully god bless andy militarynut

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Fair enough Dave. It wasn't my intention to discredit Kelly Hicks... I've been talking to him about these Champagne runes and I only posted what he emailed me.


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BTW Dave, that part that I posted from Kelly Hicks was his actual reply to my email. Honestly I don't see the reason why you had to remove it and put a note on the post that "Mr. Hicks can speak for himself." He was also referring to one of his books where he has his thought about champagne runes written down.

If I was taking his good name through the mud then yeah, I'd completely understand why the post got removed. In this case it wasn't.

Gruess,

Gerry


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I read through the WAF thread when I was sent a link about 2 weeks ago. Lots of speculation and accusation and opinion but short on facts. Perhaps it has progressed since then. (?)

No need to do that again here. As I said, Mr. Hicks can post his thoughts
/ photos if he wishes, but it needs to be first hand. Same with owners of those helmets.

I feel the photos may be the key so the more the merrier.

Dave #315497 01/29/2016 12:45 AM
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Ok, after reading some more posts on other forums I see what you mean Dave.

Hopefully we can add some pictures here soon.


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Panzer,

A good discussion would be welcome, but not a food fight. As Byzanti said above "Oh man Gerry that /those threads on waf were totally off the rails- I have hardly seen a discussion get that heated! let's hope the better nature of the Gdc-ers once again proves itself to be above the fray."

I'd particularly like to have the fellow who blew the whistle come to GDC and post his photos and facts. If anyone knows him, please extend an invitation. Kelly Hicks, too.

Dave

Last edited by Dave; 01/29/2016 11:31 PM.
Dave #315889 02/12/2016 02:02 AM
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Dave, I rarely visit here anymore. However I would recommend that you visit ghw2.com and join. It will allow you to read the rather long but fascinating thread which can be found under Third Reich Combat Helmets. Once you read it you will see that the study is so detailed that the author, DougB has really done his homework.
Enjoy

Cheers, Mike


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I agree Mike, the study of Doug is a real eye opener.


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Mike and Panzer,

I have read the summary of it, including seeing that key image showing the tape line and the spray paint splatter. Wow!

If I read correctly, the outstanding questions are:

1. Who was the "artist" ?

2. When did he/she/them start making these ?

3. Are ALL the painted 'decals' bad or only some ?

4. Are buyers getting their money back ?

The SOS is this week and many owners and sellers of these helmets should be there, along with the reference book writers. If any of the above questions are discussed, please post here.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave #316031 02/15/2016 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: Dave
Mike and Panzer,

I have read the summary of it, including seeing that key image showing the tape line and the spray paint splatter. Wow!

If I read correctly, the outstanding questions are:

1. Who was the "artist" ?

2. When did he/she/them start making these ?

3. Are ALL the painted 'decals' bad or only some ?

4. Are buyers getting their money back ?

The SOS is this week and many owners and sellers of these helmets should be there, along with the reference book writers. If any of the above questions are discussed, please post here.

Thanks,
Dave


Dave just made some very interesting points and these are very significant questions. I believe Andy made the point that there may be some angry folks at sos I am curious to know what happens. Also, want to second daves request for sos pics I wish I were going!

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Yeah I wish I were going too but unfortunately I've got a 5 weeks trip to Europe planned this summer.

Those are indeed some good questions Dave and I hope we'll get the answers soon.

Gruess

Gerry


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Any reports, gents?

Dave #317094 03/16/2016 10:29 PM
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Incredible.

Absolute silence on this subject here and other places ... at least those that I know of.

Anyone know of any news?

Thanks
Dave

Dave #317105 03/17/2016 10:49 AM
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hi dave
good morning america i was at the sos show and had a chance to walk the floor i did notice that most ss helmets wasnt moveing that fast since the champagn decals were discovered and i didnt hear of any screems or horor events at the show to the people who got screwed in the tune of 8,000 u.s.d. or more for these type helmets either wasnt saying any thing and biteing the big bullet also i didnt see kelly hicks at all at the show every thing in the helmet dept. was quiet thats the whole story jerry unless some one else heard something every body have a nice day andy militarynut

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I know someone who has one and who was also at sos. He basically decided to just keep it in his room at home for display.. I'd have a tough time seeing that everyday but he is accepting it as a learn my lesson type piece. For me, I'm still upset that there was a piece I didn't buy and when I came back it was gone I couldn't live with it. Jeden das seine.

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hi mike
this is how some people feel sad but true i feel the same as you do i cant live with that feeling this is me what can we say have a nice day andy militarynut

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Curiouser and curiouser.

Dave #317218 03/20/2016 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dave
Curiouser and curiouser.


Or.... More and more curious?. You never much liked controversy and anytime it came up you generally deleted it and handed out infractions. Not sure of the interest now but o.k, ill bite.

The information put out into the market by Doug B. raised quite an issue. Its still an issue but Kelly Hicks appears to be sticking to his guns and saying that some of these helmets are real....

Of course the 3 that were tested were all accompanied by Kelly Hicks certificates which makes it hard for him to get out from under them. His cert's read as something along the lines of a bearer bond where the guy holding it has a 100% guarantee of authenticity. What is not known or what has not yet come to pass is a situation where Hick's refuses a C.O.A in terms of honoring it. The only example of that is Doug B. who attempted to return one to Hicks and was refused.

Then there is the Blackie that Doug B. was asked to overlook by Kelly Hicks as it was sold and could do no more harm, only to show up at auction and get blown up.

The consensus and the talk at the show amongst the players was not good for Kelly Hicks with the term, "Crook" utilized by several heavyweight's and various other terms as well. The comments were no doubt in stark contrast to what these same people were saying several years ago and it would appear that he has lost his luster and while he was received professionally at the show, it was nothing more than a courtesy while they were not discussing his major screw up and true beliefs in the matter.

Currently he scurries about flipping cloth, most notably SS cloth which comes with his C.O.A's as well. What his expertise is there is beyond me but his certs are worth nothing to many now. In addition the several year old science scam is still a topic and his reputation appears to be in the crapper overall.

Of course there is some random chatter on Doug B. as well.

ajax #317225 03/20/2016 09:50 PM
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That is the very definition of a parade of horribles. Thanks for the post Ajax!! Dave, although Ajax makes a good point about the more correct "more and more curious" if you were referencing Lewis Carroll (Alice in wonderland) with that quote- touché! that couldn't have been more perfect- "down the rabbit hole" this is seeming to trend... I'm interested in the coa vs not honoring a coa- what does this mean, big picture? ( I already can guess.... Caveat emptor in the end!!) down and down Alice went!!!

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I would no doubt miss an Alice in Wonderland quote. Whether a COA would be honored by Kelly Hicks remains a question, most believe it would not be currently.

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Ajax,

Controversy, as demonstrated on this topic, is good to have on any forum. Doug did a good piece of work for the collecting community. I suspect that the fallout, both to those helmets and COAs, is not over.

Dave

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Originally Posted By: Dave
Ajax,

Controversy, as demonstrated on this topic, is good to have on any forum. Doug did a good piece of work for the collecting community. I suspect that the fallout, both to those helmets and COAs, is not over.

Dave


Dave,

Yes, he did do good work and you are correct and I do not believe it is over. The only helmet returned has been a Shea example with a Hicks certification and Shea always makes good from what I have seen. But there has been no public problem with Kelly himself on a return other than Doug B.

Of course a lot of guys know him as well and a few think that maybe he wanted the throne so to speak, and that his motive might have been there, personally I do not buy it and think if anything he went light on Kelly, I am sure he would deny that as well but there was quite a bit of chatter at the show. Apparently there were some other deals over the years that have started to float and would reflect poorly on Kelly as well. So you did have some fairly harsh comments from people that would not normally be harsh, at least from my experience. But the whole Helmet market has been locked up under him for years and no one could move without his certification and blessing, not a good thing.

Looked to me like he was table flipping and running SS cloth now with certs, tunics, visors, and other nightmare items. So he will write a COA but based on what went on at the show he cannot distinguish bad cap insignia from good. So, I am thinking its just a matter ot time before a helmet comes back, a deal go's bad, or someone decides to talk about some other deal that has been kept under water for 20 years.

Last edited by ajax; 03/21/2016 12:55 AM.
ajax #317288 03/24/2016 12:11 PM
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hi members
just noticed a m-42 ss single decal champagne decal just sold in two days on whermach site for 895.00 u.s.d. cheap as he puts it guess this guy bit the big bullet after paying probly 5,000 u.s.d. to 8000 u.s.d. ouch ouch that hurts also guess he wants to move on have a nice day guys andy militarynut

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Hello everybody ,
I am new in the "business" of the german helmets and I have no idea what champagne runes could be !!
could anybody published some pictures showing a champage SS rune compared to other models ??
thanks a lot for your help ,
jean.

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hi jean
sorry i dont have any champagn ss decal helmets perhaps one of the outher members here have one to show . but any way the ss champagn decal is not silver in color it has a yellowish color i all ways called it a crushed glass decal hope all agrees have a nice day andy militarynut

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Currently I don't have a picture of one


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HOO LEEE SHI IT !!!!!!

WOW,,not a helmet guy but,,, In the early 70s German helmets were on the cheap side and plentiful. We'd paint skulls on the front and wear them while riding our mini bikes! Really by the mid 70s we were more serious in to collecting. Many times we'd take a helmet with no decals and paint them up camo style,,even made a few chicken wire styles! Wonder where they are now blush ..

anyway,,, This CH runes thing is major for the helmet guys. The guy that literally wrote the book[s] couldn't tell that a decal was painted on?! confused and even worse wrote CoAs for them! Jeezz! The lengths these counterfeiters go is amazing!
* Isn't there ONE photo of these runes that we can have posted here for GDC? Hey take it where ever it can be found just give proper credit here in your post..

Gaspare #319193 06/09/2016 01:40 PM
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hi gaspare
yes the guy that wrote the book on ss helmets wrote a great book but put a fake ss helmet on the front cover of his book with out first examining it then put it in the publishers hands all for a good friend in the hobby. he even admits he was wrong doing this stupid thing with out examining it for a so called friend sad because he was a well respected man in his field of helmets and later this fake helmet was sold for mega bucks greed n money and destroyed his reputation as I all ways say my reputation is worth more to me then all the money in the world with out our reputation we are nothing this is why don boyle ss honor ring man has to have rings in hand to many cons tricksters out there with terrible some times altered pictures and outher means of faking rings /documents lazer beams etc sad part of our hobby stay well god bless andy militarynut

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That's it ?

As I read this, some are good and some are bad ? Few if any being returned ?

Pictures would be great if anyone has some.

Dave

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Here is a photo of the "Champagne" SS Runes decal. I've read several discussions on these around different forums, and it seems the general consensus is that they are all post war.

ss-fake-decal.jpg (77.61 KB, 188 downloads)

[Linked Image from germandaggers.com]
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Dave #319202 06/09/2016 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dave
That's it ?

As I read this, some are good and some are bad ? Few if any being returned ?

Pictures would be great if anyone has some.

Dave


An entire class or variant helmet have beem deemed bad and are not decals at all but airbrushed. In addition a black helmet deemed fake after the author certified it was involved. The author requested that the information on the black helmet be held back from public to save face after t was sold as original and is refusing to acknowledge the CH decals are actually ALL bad and applied with an airbrush. Several refunds made but not by the author and certificate source for originality.

Last edited by ajax; 06/09/2016 05:05 PM.
ajax #319213 06/09/2016 07:51 PM
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Cringweworthy. Really, all of it. Like watching a car crash in slow motion. What other things are the owners of these pieces doing? I kno one collector who is just keeping it in a separate room as a lesson/reminder. What would u guys do?

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I had a good discussion with Hicks about these runes and I've been doing some research on other forums (GHW) and I must say there's some good arguments on both sides.

The thing is that if I had a faker I'd return it to the seller but I understand why people are keeping theirs.


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Originally Posted By: Panzerfaust
I had a good discussion with Hicks about these runes and I've been doing some research on other forums (GHW) and I must say there's some good arguments on both sides.

The thing is that if I had a faker I'd return it to the seller but I understand why people are keeping theirs.




Good argument?. Helemts with Hicks C.O.A's are shown to have painted on decals and he refuses to acknowledge, make any refunds, and in addition asks another collector to bury info on a another certified helmet that is bad. And this is on top of several other helmets with his certificates that are found to be bad on GHW. Clearly you have more reading to do. He was told they were bad for years and he kept selling and writing certificates, then he used Xrfacts with a corrupted data base. Intentionally corrupted according to higher ups including other forum mods. There is no good argument because Hicks is hiding and has not even put forth an argument other than to use shills to make statements on WRF. No vet helmets, none found in Europe, painted decals, lot numbers discrepencies. All his previous buddies think he is a crook and guys are out hundreds of thousands of dollars. Whats good about that?

Last edited by ajax; 06/10/2016 03:34 AM.
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