UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum Werner Schmoll (21.6.44)

SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Werner Schmoll SS# 353045

Born:15.8.15

9.11.42 Kdr. Na. Abt. 4. SS. Pol. Pz. Gr. Dv

On or about 11 November 42 SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Schmoll took Command of
Signal Battalion 4Th SS Police Panzer Grenider Division

This is listed on the Dienstaltersliste Obergruppenfuhrer bis Hauptsturmfuhrer
1. July 1944

Is this a real honor ring? It looks to me to lack the detail I would expect. Where did it come from?

Yes this is an authentic SS Totenkopf H. Himmler honor ring. I apologize If the pictures didn't come out that great, I was using my iPhone 6

If you would like to verify the ring Werner Schmoll (21.6.44) or any of the posted documents for authenticity feel free to contact Don Boyle at
[email protected] or cell (570) 815-6920

Regards,

Craig

nice one Craig, another to your collection!

Looks like a perfect ring with perfect provenance.
Congrats!

Hello Craig,

just a question : did the ring get Don's CoA ?

Ric

I am sure it will. In either case it does look like it has been in the bag for years.

weird that the inner band isn't nicely polished. Or maybe its the photo?

is this circle ok? especially on 3 o'clock

is this bad foto or do I see two cracks?

because of photo or what last name in engraving also looks a bit weird. probably photo with better light would clarify.

and last question is about teeth. where have gone teeth on overall unworn ring? or for this model it is ok?

Hello
One other thing about the skull, it doesn't appear to be a separate item attached to the band. Maybe it is just the pics but this all looks one piece. Some nice clear close up pics from the top and bottom of the band may clear this up. It also appears that the joiner line is made to look like a line and not a clean soldered connection where it should be joined. Ron

yes, that solder spot is strange. it looks like this right after soldering is made. After files and polishing it should be clear straight line or nothing as on most rings.

I don't know if it's a die flaw on the bind rune at 3 o'clock, it seems like that's a real common wear quickly area due to it being where it is, perhaps rubs out quicker than other areas, at least that's what I've seen on other rings. Rare to see that area perfect I think. Just IMHO.

Well there was hand finishing [grinding, detailing etc.] done to these rings so you will see differences..

- But I do agree about the seam,, it looks weird.. And the rear rune,,well here are 2 photos of known good rings, a 43 and 44.

Better photos should be posted here.. Camera on 'marcro',,as much light as possible without glare.. Avoid angled shots. A engraving photo preferably the name, a birds eye view. All the runes IF possible.. These things are expensive make sure your getting what your spending your hard earned money on...

According to Don Boyle the ring and documents together in his eyes are very rare and rate in the top 5 he has seen.

attached are better photos. It's funny a couple of members have questions about the ring, but nothing about 4 award documents accompanying the SSHR recipient.
This is something you will see far and few in between.

Regards,
Craig

Craig, a quick pic of the COA will be helpful IMHO. Gaspare said it best as it pertains to the details, it's a "dot every I and cross every T" type item largely due to the price they command, as most of us would be lucky to see much less own such an item. Thanks for sharing it!
Best,
Mike

Mike,

The Schmolls SSHR has a Don Boyle Certificate, I appreciate your concern but I have to say that I have posted five SSHR between GD and WAF and you are the first to ask me to post a Boyle Certificate. For you I will do this, but I have to ask have you purchased an SSHR? and if so why have you not shared this with us?
Regards,
Craig

Craig,

if for any reason you have troubles posting it please send scan to :

[email protected]

As a note I own 8 Honor rings (all Don's certified) and am always very interested in the subject.

Thank in advance

Ric

Craig,
I apologize, I meant absolutely no offense. I've seen your rings and discs, they are very fine. I was merely trying to help, and perhaps try to clarify some of the members concerns. As on WAF, no one is trying to attack you or your ring, in that case it was merely a concern arising from unclear photos. People are sometimes quick to make a judgement here and there in the idea that perhaps the lack of clarity in any sense is an attempt to be deceptive. I am merely trying to help you, and help belay that notion, as I believe everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, rather than be convicted by it. If I've been unhelpful, I'm sorry for that. I appreciate the concern for me, but I do not require a posting of a don boyle COA. Again, just trying to help clarify for the benefit of the (quite honestly) good and honest members of this forum, they mean no attack. I've found them to be just an amazing font of unique knowledge, i am proud to be associated in any way with them. As for SSHR's, they are just so amazing, and unique, one day I would be proud to have any one of the quality and character you have shown and sold over the forums, you have an amazing and high-grade premium collection. However, I'm not entirely in that income bracket or maybe life group just yet, so I can only appreciate and learn from the sidelines. As to owning one, though, believe it or not I did get amazingly lucky enough to find one last summer in a pawn shop separated from an SS collection, put in with silver rings, and I was able to buy it for silver weight. Honestly I thought it was an old Harley davidson, one percenter ring or something. I did post photos of it on this forum, and I did get mr. Boyle's COA. I went to the MAX show last year specifically for that purpose, and I ended up meeting and having a great time with Mr. Boyle, Mr. Andy L, and of course the moderator of this forum, Mr. Gaspare Bua. They have all seen my ring in hand, and although it's not a looker, they also identified it as real, and it's value is nothing compared to the friends I met and made through it. Good luck with your ring, IMHO, even as a new guy, it's beautiful and I hope the members give it 2 thumbs up, it's an incredible piece.
God bless,
Mike

Ric,

Thanks for reminding me, you actually were the first. Ric, have you shared any of
your 8 rings on the forums GD or WAF? has a member ever requested that you post your Boyle COA?

I have no problems posting the COA on here if it is that important to Mike and you.

Br

Craig

Here you go .

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98149&highlight=strautmann&page=2

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357257&highlight=abtmeyer&page=2

(this one formerly belonged to Joe Wotka (JoeW) now resides in my collection)

Then you can find two more published on Antonio Scapini's book (pag. 88-89-90 and pag. 96-97)

I can mention a rare 24-12-33 dated honor ring (pics posted on World War Militaria Forum now disappeared).


Of course not only '30 rings (my preferred ones) , but two '40 : 9.11.41 and 20.4.44 dated (this one mint)

Now the reason of my request : in 2013 I was lucky enough to have in hands for study in depth the best repro never seen before, let's say a super fake almost perfect but not 100 %. I sent to Don some close-ups along with my doubts and then having him the ring in hands confirmed my suspect. Well, your ring has a feature shown by that super fake, but do not ask me which one as I will not tell you.

So if Don released his CoA then appears obvious such feature may appear on original ones as well, differently I suggest you to ship the ring to Don for blessing it.

Ric

It is not like we don't noticed or like to see the award documents, but rings are the primary focus (for me). Don't let that stop anyone from posting award docuemnts or items related to the ring. History is important to all of us!
Ron

Ric,
I relayed to Don Boyle your concern, he told me that after having the Werner Schmoll SSHR in hand and the 4 original award documents (all with the same Waffen SS unit) and match the 1. July Dienstaltersliste. If I decided to sell he would want the opportunity to have this grouping in his personal collection, as this rates in the top
5 he has seen with documentation.

I relayed info on the super fake features you see
It just might be me, but I don't think Don is worried about this one being a "Super Fake"

Craig

Ron,
Do you have any original documents related to Wilhelm Bittrich?
Craig

I have his complete SS file (on microfilm even though that may not be what you are after) and pics.

wow! I am having Schmoll researched by www.ssdaggers.com, Werner Schmoll has a SS Officer File and Race & Settlement File in the National Archives. He may also have NSDAP membership file cards.
Craig

Craig., Thanks for the new photos.. Now you can see the inner band isn't all clouded/darkened up! Looks much better. Weird looking details on runes etc can sometimes just be the ring took a 'hit' on that spot, or simply wear..

Jewelry is extremely hard to get good photos taken.
HRs especially will drive you nuts.Many times you will see things that are or aren't there and it's just the photograph.

As far as Dons paper,,great if you have it, and IF your in the US you really should invest in it for your ring.. Many guys in Europe worry about sending it back and forth. I don't blame them so easy to lose a little thing like these rings! Don has papered many a ring in Europe without a problem. Don't think a ring has ever been lost[?].

Craig,

my apologies if I expressed my doubts about Schmoll ring, now I know it's 100 % original and a real beauty.

Regards

Ric

From: Don Boyle
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 9:18 AM
To: Ric b.collector
Subject: Re: Another super fake belonging to FRANK-BAMBERGER family ?

Ric: the Schmoll ring is a near mint to mint textbook example of an
Honor Ring and would rate in the top 5 I have ever seen with original award
documents . In fact I would have loved to have it in my personal collection.
I have examined it in hand and it is no way like the Frank ring or the other
ring. This is one of the best I have seen bar none it is a beauty. This is
a problem when people who post pictures on forums as they do not show the
real ring in most cases that is why they need to be seen in person to make a
judgment on the ring. As a matter of fact I hope the forum people
questioning the ring make him want to sell it so I can put it in my personal
collection. This is why I stay off forums they asked me to come back as a
forum moderator and in no way will I ever do that . I don't go on forums
look at forums and I tell anyone who post photos of there items that they
are crazy because there are people on forums that will tear an original item
to pieces. At one time forums were good but that was years ago when you had
many good forum moderators but many have left. Do not mean to vent but in my
personal opinion I think anyone who post photos of there items on a forum
are just looking for trouble. Years ago I would have but I learned the hard
way as will others who post there items that people they do not even know
will rip them apart and bring them down. Bottom line this is an original
Honor Ring with documents that I would be honored to have in my personal
collection. Regards Don Boyle

-----Original Message-----
From: Ric b.collector
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 4:04 PM
To: Don Boyle
Subject: Another super fake belonging to FRANK-BAMBERGER family ?

Hello Don,

I guess you remember Bamberger's repro ring (see attachment) and your
certificate (with personal letter) released in 1/13/2014.

Since I still do not understand if Schmoll ring got your CoA, or not, then
I have to ask you direcly :

Ric
Don't ever feel you have to apologize for questioning an item.If the pics posted don't show the detail needed for an assessment, our questioning will help get the pics necessary for a good assessment.Ron

Craig,

better to add the missing part in my asking email to Don :

"....my main concern about Schmoll ring is the similar silver blotch over the seam like seen on Bamberger's repro....."

Btw, the mentioned super fake has few wrong features, so we can tell.....

Ric

Ric,
I according to this email you didn't want to share with me what "Feature" my ring has that resembles a "Super Fake" and subsequently got you excited enough to email Don Boyle. So I decided to omit the part pertaining to your discovery, But as you wish below
is the remainder of the e-mail.
Craig

My main concern about Schmoll ring is the similar silver blotch over the
seam like seen on Bamberger's repro.

Thank you in advance for help me to understand

Regards

Ric

Craig,

Don shared with you my asking email, so no reason to keep hidden any part.

Ric

Ron,
Taking accountability for your actions is what we called in the Army a "Leadership Trait". While Ric may be assessing, your flat out looking for things to make it a fake. Now you know it is an authentic SSHR and your "assessment" skills are lacking to say the least. Ron you do not have the qualifications to make the type of assessment that you so desperately want to.
Did any members "assess" your Wilhelm Bittrich SSHR the way you scrutinized my ring? were you asked to display a Don Boyle COA?
Craig

Whoa, just wait a minute! Don't get all upset if someone questions your ring just because you don't post clear specific pics to begin with! Nobody is out looking to prove your ring is a fake. It just needed some clarification and and nothing is wrong with someone asking for that clarification.
Next time, try and post clear clsoe up pics and a little more info. You post a pic and a coupel of lines of info. Sometimes folks don't know if you are asking for opinions ar just showing.
This forum is a grerat place to share and no need for anyone to get confrontational.

Tanker,
I agree with you that this is a great place to share, which is what I was trying to do. Don't confuse me pointing out blatant misrepresentations of my ring with being confrontational.
I have posted five SSHR between GD and WAF to contribute to the Forum and or respective thread. I have had a Don Boyle COA prior to every posting.
So for me Tanker, not one of my 5 rings needed your clarification.
4 of the 5 rings Have been sold or traded, but should I be in the market for another one. you have convinced me not to post it on here, because if it were my first ring and I didn't have a COA from Don I may have returned it.
Tanker, your ring is very worn compared to mine and you didn't get the free "clarification"

I don't know what your problem is but if you have that attitude, you may be best served elsewhere. I posted one comment about your ring and you go off on me for no reason. You need to relax a little and not get so defensive if questioned. Like I said, I don't know what your problem and yes, you do not need my clarification but if you did not want comments, then please post in the main post you do not wish to get comments!

These dang rings are evil aren't they lol.