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Well, definitively another story !!!!
Hapur's quality is well known by Forum members, but with 2nd pattern SSHr has improved even IMO.
Very well worked seam, smaller and redesigned skull (I like it a lot) and as usually super detailed band.....by now my preferred wearer !
......and very fast shipping, welcome back Richards !
Ric
Last edited by Ric Ferrari; 10/20/2012 10:07 AM.
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Hi boys,
if the rings were DIE STRUCK, why is there so many differences? I have 23 rings (all with Don Boyle´s certificate), but I have no one second.
1.jpg (74.53 KB, 242 downloads) 2.jpg (57.24 KB, 244 downloads) 3.jpg (100.86 KB, 243 downloads)
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Interesting question.
Like to hear more.
Ohtherwise in casting from a die also the result should be like a egg to an other.
On the last pic. The upper ring looks much more worn.
Last edited by odal; 10/12/2016 05:00 PM.
�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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IM rookie and honest opinion- Die flaws exist just as casting flaws exist- I'm sure they didn't use just one die, and of course- there are predictable patterns as well as flaws, that certainly change also as a die gets used/worn out. It's better to see as many as we can to then be able to categorize the eras and ages and die flaws or flaw patterns as well as the ones caused by use to the end of a dies life. Never mind he variances caused by years of wear, or none at all! So As u mentioned- there's really no two the same, and think- you're looking at only 2 dozen or less- there were more than 10,000 made- so imagine the multitude of individual variations! One thing we look for though and know is true and consistent about its construction is that it was a die struck piece, cut to size and joined at the seam behind the skull which was made/manufactured and then separately attached. So it's not a matter of the differences, really- it's quite logical that there would be many, many of these- but the construction method would largely remain the same- it's illogical to asssume that the jewelers "re-invented the wheel" for any singular piece, yet we have clearly die struck examples from the very earliest, to the mid-transition era, to the very end of the war. I do not think it's likely the gahr firm changed horses midstream since we would clearly be able to demarcate the transition year or date to any new major ring construction overhaul. It also obviously gives very obvious fakes a leg to stand on because of course, we haven't recovered (as far as I know) any of the period dies. If one wanted to produce a fake- making a cast of an original ring is very obvious and easy solution in that case.
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It is not a question of wear - here you can see not worn rings, like new, but details ale different. Because of casting. The mold was used. That´s the reason. I absolutely agree with Craig Gottlieb, the rings were wax casted.
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IM rookie and honest opinion- Die flaws exist just as casting flaws exist- I'm sure they didn't use just one die, and of course- there are predictable patterns as well as flaws, that certainly change also as a die gets used/worn out. It's better to see as many as we can to then be able to categorize the eras and ages and die flaws or flaw patterns as well as the ones caused by use to the end of a dies life. Never mind he variances caused by years of wear, or none at all! So As u mentioned- there's really no two the same, and think- you're looking at only 2 dozen or less- there were more than 10,000 made- so imagine the multitude of individual variations! One thing we look for though and know is true and consistent about its construction is that it was a die struck piece, cut to size and joined at the seam behind the skull which was made/manufactured and then separately attached. So it's not a matter of the differences, really- it's quite logical that there would be many, many of these- but the construction method would largely remain the same- it's illogical to asssume that the jewelers "re-invented the wheel" for any singular piece, yet we have clearly die struck examples from the very earliest, to the mid-transition era, to the very end of the war. I do not think it's likely the gahr firm changed horses midstream since we would clearly be able to demarcate the transition year or date to any new major ring construction overhaul. It also obviously gives very obvious fakes a leg to stand on because of course, we haven't recovered (as far as I know) any of the period dies. If one wanted to produce a fake- making a cast of an original ring is very obvious and easy solution in that case. I don´t understand one thing - the die was from steel? Is possible to make more steel dies with the same details? Cast steel die? How is die made? And - how many rings can be made from one die? Take a look at first ring - you can see traces of the knife which corrected not quality wax cast. Or have you some other explanation?
Last edited by equirhodont; 10/12/2016 05:35 PM.
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Cast or struck. This is the question that seperates the professional circles  Allways interesting to hear the different opinions for me.
�Eine gewaltt�tige, herrische, unerschrockene, grausame Jugend will ich. Jugend muss das alles sein. Schmerzen muss sie ertragen. Es darf nichts Schwaches und Z�rtliches an ihr sein. Das freie, herrliche Raubtier muss wieder
aus ihren Augen blitzen."
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Take a look at these rings - the upper is from 1936, lower from 1937. Upper is more worn, but has more details than lower - less worn. You can see th elower is casted from worn mold. Die Struck will make the same depth, not fused edges. Have you seen some medals wit so many deferences? For example Sudeten medal, which was die struck in thousands pieces in few weeks?
And - if the ring was die struck, why the skull was cast? The same skull, which you can use for all rings?
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Last edited by equirhodont; 10/12/2016 05:34 PM.
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Good questions for sure about the dies, Martin- when we see a period die well that should provide some answers! Not sure what they were made of, or how many rings could be made from each die before it was too used or broken. Certainly that explains variations even in struck rings- dies wear out. I believe that jewelers sized, seamed, engraved, and attached skulls- it would seem logical to me that they would use their tools then to correct some flaws or other touch up items, certainly they would be individually jeweler finished, probably by more than one master jeweler in the firm, but that's just speculation on my part there. I do not happen to believe there was any major overhaul of construction method (e.g. Die to cast), so I suppose we will have to agree to disagree with the assertion/assessment of Craig Gottlieb, who advocated for a lost wax construction method. Everyone's entitled to their opinion of course, and i appreciate very much hearing yours! They are as enigmatic as they are fascinating, these rings. Can't help but be absorbed by their history!
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Tool marks on this ring are an evidence for me. The tool which squeezed the wax on matrix. If you know some other tool, which can sqeeze the steel or silver with these specific dimples, let me know...
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Sorry man, I'm not buying Craig's explanation for a million bucks. It seemed to be, to me, an attempt to either legitimize existing fake rings, then sell them as real, or begin the manufacture of cast fakes from originals (which I assume has happened before) and then sell them as real. I don't know about the tool u mention in casting or in making rings- as I said, just a rookie who doesn't make cast rings or jewelers in his spare time- just a historian- that kind of truth I search for through the stories artifacts tell us...but i remember using a leather press that was a semi-circular scalloped tool then smacked it with a hammer to make that pattern on my belt in Boy Scouts. Stamped/struck. Again, you're totally entitled to your opinion and i appreciate hearing it! However I've seen SO MANY FAKES of EVERYTHING in this hobby since I joined it a couple of years ago ESPECIALLY HONOR Rings- I can totally understand the motivation once I saw the price tag. I bet every single person on this forum bought at least one fake item and lost hundreds or thousands of dollars to someone generating the pieces as their income stream. I despise that more than anything else!
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Sorry man, I'm not buying Craig's explanation for a million bucks. It seemed to be, to me, an attempt to either legitimize existing fake rings, then sell them as real, or begin the manufacture of cast fakes from originals (which I assume has happened before) and then sell them as real. I don't know about the tool u mention in casting or in making rings- as I said, just a rookie who doesn't make cast rings or jewelers in his spare time- just a historian- that kind of truth I search for through the stories artifacts tell us...but i remember using a leather press that was a semi-circular scalloped tool then smacked it with a hammer to make that pattern on my belt in Boy Scouts. Stamped/struck. Again, you're totally entitled to your opinion and i appreciate hearing it! However I've seen SO MANY FAKES of EVERYTHING in this hobby since I joined it a couple of years ago ESPECIALLY HONOR Rings- I can totally understand the motivation once I saw the price tag. I bet every single person on this forum bought at least one fake item and lost hundreds or thousands of dollars to someone generating the pieces as their income stream. I despise that more than anything else! Do I understand well you question Don Boyle´s certificate?
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what is dons opinion cast or die struck, he/s handled all your rings
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what is dons opinion cast or die struck, he/s handled all your rings I did not ask him...
Last edited by equirhodont; 10/12/2016 06:26 PM.
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pity,we could all have learned.
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Dons finding were that the ring was die pressed.. The skulls were made in batches for stock. The rings might have been made a few at a time then when one was needed it was cut to size , engraved etc. The rings were then hand finished a bit with some kind of tool.
I am open to other methods but not cast. Our own 'Hapur' has made a die and presses his ring like the originals so things like detail aren't a problem with pressing.
I've entertained in the past a method of something like a 'press a penny'. The die was on a maytrix where a rough blank would then be drawn thru it and put the details in.. But all way to complicated. and why complicate?!
I have a period West Wall ring die. I even brought a 1928 school ring die to the MAX to show a few people. Why complicate when you don't have to!
Tell you one thing for sure,,its not cast/lost wax/investment cast! Why? Because if it was there would be no flaws!!
None of us were there,,we'll never know 100% how it was done. Maybe magic?,,maybe just from a couple of simple dies... Fun part is the hunt and then the research....
Last edited by Gaspare; 10/13/2016 05:01 AM.
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As you can see, there is nothing complicated to make a lot of rings at once. I SAY AGAIN - CRAIG GOTTLIEB WAS RIGHT - THE SS TOTENKOPFRING WAS CAST. Now you can shoot me! 
Last edited by equirhodont; 10/13/2016 08:22 AM.
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No ones here to shoot anyone, Martin- everyone has an opinion, I respect yours but I won't believe it until I see that tree of period investment cast totenkopfrings. Ill admit Craig's opinion doesn't hold a lot of weight for me, and I guess that's a judgement on my end- but dons reputation and Craig's really can't be compared to each others in this hobby. I've seen this pic before I think Gaspare posted one like it- when illustrating the differences between methods. This picture proves nothing to me except that investment casting is a method of making jewelry. Surely great pieces of art and beautiful jewelry can be and are made his way, but IMHO the period made ss honor ring was not. I most certainly do not doubt mr.boyles COA, but don doesn't believe original rings were investment cast, he believes they were die struck, as do I and many others. Gaspare mentioned our member hapur (Rich)- a tremendous artist from Europe who makes reproduction totenkopfrings that really are second to none- reasonably priced, and made with the traditional die method- here's a link to his website showing many videos "how it's made." Totenkopfrings regardless thanks for the opinion and discussion, it's useful and it's appreciated...glad to have you on the forum, martin! Your HR ring pictures are outstanding!!! Best- Mike
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equirhodont,,, that's all it does is make a bunch at a time. But doesn't mean its easier.
What is really easier? lets say after you have a mold for casting,,,and after you have the die for pressing.
*For the cast,,you first have to heat up wax and pour in to a mold.
When dry/done you open and wax weld the model ring to the tree.
It then gets sealed in to a special tube and a refractory plaster is poured in and let harden.
Then you do a burn out,,heat to let the wax melt and run out.
Then you can pour in your molten metal silver, gold etc. Let cool.
Then you cut the piece off and make repairs, clean up the piece a bit,engrave etc.
*Now for the pressing-
You take a pre cut piece of silver and secure in to a press.
You chock up your die.
You press a button.
You then clean up the ring a bit, engrave, round, solder on skull.
SO,,what is easier.?
OK, some questions if you think its cast. Your photo of the tree. It is obvious each size ring would need its own mold. So why is there a seam and separate skull? Why not just one piece?
Also,,think of this:
You are the Gold/Silversmith to the NSDAP. You work is some of the best out there. Everything perfect and beautiful.. Why would you let one of your most prized pieces go out with a defect on it? A flaw? It would be SO simple to fix it on the wax model,,seconds..
I've asked a bunch of old jewelers here in NYCs jewelry district and all gave me the same answer. That during that period in time it was easier,faster,cheaper to press then cast.
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Gaspare, I´m not sure the TK ring was cast as a ring, meaybe it was cast as a band, but it was cast. Take a look at other WWII skull rings - they were pressed, no doubt. But each piece is 90% identical. On TK rings is too much differences. And too much tool marks. See pictures below, I can´t see any tool marks, which were finishing the ring. And these rings were pressed in thousands and thousand pieces!
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Not to go sideways on the thread- but those are a couple VERY nice skull kantine pieces, i just found the top one's (mit rote augen!) mint unissued brother on Vinnie's table at the max- still with original price tag!!! Yes, pressed of course- but not many survive in stone MINT condition! Nice pieces, Martin- and there easily are so many fakes of that ring! Looks like nice original! Congrats!
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equirhodont,,,,,
I asked a couple questions. Do you have an opinion on them?
Another one,, IF you had a bar of pressed silver,,and a bar of cast silver,and started polishing them like crazy. What more than likely would start to happen to each of them??
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Thanks, this ring has the price tag, too, but man who found him took it away  Not to go sideways on the thread- but those are a couple VERY nice skull kantine pieces, i just found the top one's (mit rote augen!) mint unissued brother on Vinnie's table at the max- still with original price tag!!! Yes, pressed of course- but not many survive in stone MINT condition! Nice pieces, Martin- and there easily are so many fakes of that ring! Looks like nice original! Congrats!
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Dear Gaspare, as I wrote - I´m not sure, if it was cast bar or ring. But I think it was the ring. To adjust to required size is the same procedure - you cut twice by tongs. You don´t need molds in few sizes. What is more comfortable - to join few milimeters, or bend bar by smiting of hammer? Both manufacturing processes have some pros and cons to determine the correct by that. Stop think about indolence production and follow the track to the ring. Why contemporary jewellers are not pressing their rings? Time is money, after all... equirhodont,,,,,
I asked a couple questions. Do you have an opinion on them?
Another one,, IF you had a bar of pressed silver,,and a bar of cast silver,and started polishing them like crazy. What more than likely would start to happen to each of them??
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during the period big shops had die cutters on staff.. Now they can pay someone very little to play with wax..
The big question remains,,,IF cast, why is there 'die flaws' on the ring? IF cast they would have been maybe only on the first few rings!
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during the period big shops had die cutters on staff.. Now they can pay someone very little to play with wax..
The big question remains,,,IF cast, why is there 'die flaws' on the ring? IF cast they would have been maybe only on the first few rings! Good Question, Gaspare. If I accept die struck, how I explain tool marks on that ring? I´m little bit crazy from that It looks like repair hot. No sharp contures. Is it repair of die or ring? Have you seen it before? What I still don´t understand is, if they used more dies, or just only one for 30 and 40 years. Is possible to make the identical die? I mean in pre-war times. Without lasers and computers. Has anybody now, how the dies were made? Hapur told me he is using still the same die. How many rings we can make from one die? I want to find right procedure, so I need answers to all question. Thanks for your patience, Gaspare 1.jpg (74.53 KB, 163 downloads) 2.jpg (57.24 KB, 163 downloads)
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Another question. We all know this furrow. I can see it on my rings from 1940 date. Is it repair of die? Or brand new die from 1940? I have ring 1939 (but 40 look) without that furrow (on the right). You can also see differences of triangle.
And - you can see hundreds of small holes on the right ring (1939). Looks more like cast. Or is possible to do that by struck, too? I'm out of it on a branch
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tool marks are not a problem so not to worry...
Usually back then,,simple as possible -
A master die cutter makes a 'Master' [very hard material]. That is used to make 'working' dies. They make many copies. When it wears or breaks the master comes out of the die room and another working die is made. All the rings lets say from the particular manufacturer will look the same. Some big shops will even sell their working dies.. Many of the ring pattern look exactly the same because they came from the same master!
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Thanks, Gaspare. Which material is using for working dies?
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couldn't tell you exactly. I'm sure a quick search on google will provide you with answers..
Gotta be something on the soft side.. Guessing maybe a mild steel. They could always harden it [very easy] for working,,besides,,silver is very soft/malleable...
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Let's hope the exact methods and materials are lost to time... we certainly don't want any "new" honor rings showing up!!
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Fantastic explanations and pictures from Harpur about manufacturing TK rings. This tread should be pinned as it is very interesting
Hice todo ubique
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