UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons European Edged Weapons Help needed identifying unusual German/Axis dagger

Does anybody know to which country this dagger belongs (see attached pictures)? It's made by Alcoso in a typical German style and quality. So this is clearly not some sort of hand-made fantasy piece. Judging by the style of manufacture, I'd date it sometime between 1930-ties and 1940-ties. Since it was made by a German company I assume that it must have been a German dagger or from one of the axis countries. But it could also be from one of those "Latin American contracts", which German dagger makers were actively doing after WWII.

This dagger has three distinct pieces of heraldry, which might help to identify its origin: the double-headed eagle, the winged female figure (Nike-?) and a crown. The eagle is the easiest one. The following countries have (or had) it on their coat of arms:

Albania
Armenia
Austria (1934�1938)
Austria-Hungary
Byzantine Empire
German Confederation
Holy Roman Empire
Kingdom of Mercia (527�918)
Montenegro
Kingdom of Mysore
Russian Empire
Russian Federation
Seljuk Empire
Serbia
Serbian Empire
Kingdom of Serbia
Spanish Empire (during the Habsburg dynasty)
Kingdom of Yugoslavia

It also appears on other coats of arms and flags, including the flag of the Greek Orthodox Church, the arms and flag of the Hellenic Army General Staff and the Hellenic Army XVI Infantry Division, a number of cities in Germany, Netherlands and Serbia, the arms and flag of the city of Toledo, Spain, and the arms of the town of Velletri, Italy.

However, given that the double-headed eagle does not have crowns, the time frame and some other factors the list becomes VERY narrow:

Albania
Austria (1934�1938)
German Confederation (some sort of jubilee)
Greece
Montenegro
Serbia/Yugoslavia
Spain
some city

To me the eagle looks closest to the one of the German Confederation or the Reichsflotte of the mid-19th Century. As for the other two pieces of insignia (winged female figure and crown) - I have no idea. Does anybody know what they could mean in connection with the double-headed eagle? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Im thinking about South America. Looking at the shape Bolivia, Ecuador ,Columbia etc.Just my idea no connected with coats of arms.
Hard to find conection with Europe.Ted

I guess I'm a little confused.. These pictures are from Tom Johnson's Website and this item is actively for sale for $4,500.00 .
I guess what you are saying is you do not agree with the description of this item or what is the issue ? It may not be Spanish. It may be something harder to find....

GREAKLY,

What is going on here? Please tell us.

Dave
admin

Greakly, There is a rule that if you post an item from a dealers site you reference that site. This stops members from re creating the wheel and gives a good starting point.

I would work with Damast on this. He has the south American catalogues where your answer may be found.

In any case you need to be more forthcoming on these forums.

I didn't know there was such rule. Sorry. The dagger is, indeed, from Johnson's web site. I withheld the origin in order not to get "Johnson thinks it's Spanish, so it must be Spanish" answer. In fact, I had a conversation with Mr. Johnson about this piece and, basically, he BELIEVES it to be Spanish but he doesn't have any solid proof of that. By "solid proof" I mean, pages from reference books, drawings from manufacturers' sales catalogs, earlier auction sales or something else like that.

That's why I put the picture without referencing the web site. As I mentioned in the first post, it MIGHT be Spanish, but I do not see how the combination of heraldic insignia supports that. And I was hoping that some symbol or a combination of symbols would ring the bell to some forum member and would help to better identify this dagger.

Is there a better picture of the pommel to post? Thanks

The "double headed" eagle is not clear in the photos. Can we get a look at it. this is not the first example that has surfaced. It is believed by my friends to be South American, a small country with a past tied to Spain.

In any case it is an ultra rare original by all accounts.

Which one do you mean? You see, most Latin and Central American countries (with the exception of Brasil) got their independence from Spain in the early 19th Century. Since then and up to these days none of them didn't really have any "royalties". Especially, in the 20th Century. Dictatorships - yes, but not monarchies. Therefore, I am having hard time imagining a "royal" insignia (crown) being placed on a "pueblo" dagger. No way. No matter how much that little country cherished their colonial Spanish-related past.

Also a DOUBLE-HEADED eagle doesn't make much sense for the Latin America either. In that part of the world they prefer to use condors in their heraldry. A single-headed ones. At least I do not know of any Latin or Central American country that used a double-headed bird as its symbol. Do you know of such country?

I think, deciphering the combination of the crown and the eagle is the key in identifying the origin of this dagger. Since none of the countries have the victory goddess as its symbol, it could be viewed just as a decorative element. But if we identify the country that was a monarchy in the 30-ties and at the same time had a double-headed eagle (without crown or any other "royal" insignia) as its coat of arms this mystery would be solved.

No. Unfortunately, these two pictures are all I have. I would, however, say that it looks very much like the eagle for the Holy Roman Empire:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire

And what about Montenegro? This is the coat of arms of this little European country, the eagle in the pommel lacks the central shiled ant the crown but is the only one coat of arms with a two headed eagle (only Russia has one too)

Regards

Nacho

I would need a clear picture of the pommel to be sure.

Interesting thread. It appears the scabbard has suffered a couple of dents. I look forward to learning what country it may have been made for.

Mark

I realize that I'm a little late to this discussion, but...

unless it has somehow been proven to be "Spanish Air Force" (per JRB), I think there's a good chance that it is Greek.

The two-headed eagle and crown are similar to the separate components of the crest of the Greek Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople.

The victory Nike is very similar to the re-creation of the Nike of Paeonios at Olympia.

Just some random thoughts...