UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum HJ honor bayonets

I was lucky to find these two pieces at Pennsylvania gun show.
One is with HJ motto and HJ flag on pommel and other one more rare with swastika and SS motto on the blade.
Here you go

SS motto

Great hit and original, but the swastika paint looks strange and too bright

Congrats on your score
Newton

Finding 2 of these at 1 show is like winning the jackpot!

Cangratulations, Stingray!

Best regards,

Herman

Don't know exactly how many shows it took me to find mine, but is is a 3 digit number for sure...

Best regards,

Herman

Stingray,

Congrats

Two Super finds at one gunshow, you have very good luck finding rare items my friend over in the US, condition is pretty good as well on the two bayos but i really think the swastika has been re-painted recently on the SS bayo.





Regards Mac 66.

Thanks guys
I got them both from one guy and yes I was lucky

Here are close pictures of the pommel.



Stingray

Ivan,

These are some beautiful examples, you're very lucky to have scooped them up. The one I had was a variant of the two you show, it had the HJ pennant on the pommel & Schutzstaffel motto on the blade. The grips were stag which is a scarcely seen option. The quality of the construction & particularly of the etch were superlative. Alas, I sold it to fund other hobby pursuits. Such is life,...

Very Nice score of 2 at one time. Congrats!

Nice score!
My guess is some one post war painted that swas.
Regardless rarely seen!

So my personal question would be why somebody did paint it such heavily....???
I am aware of at least one with an erased and redone swaz´...

By the way, these are NOT HJ honor bajonets because they are not attachable to a rifle. These are HJ knives with up to now unknown purpose.

Hermann, congratulations you nearly got them all!

Regards,

To be sure they are very Interesting items. But I'm in complete agreement with wotan that they are not bayonets, and personally have some doubts about the "Honor" designation. When I looked into the matter a few years ago I came away with the impression that they were precursor knives (to the RZM) that were commercially made to attract the youthful members of the Hitlerjugend. And the very temporary use of the SS motto to its adoption and the early beginnings of the SS as it was taking shape and was separating itself from the SA. Which of course led to the early history of the Hitlerjugend, with my recollection of the situation there not immediately coming to mind although I imagine that I may still have some information set aside somewhere. FP

The blades, although often in not too good (and even used) condition, mostly do show nickeling or at least traces of nickeling. This is for me a sure sign that these certain knives did have decorative character contrary to the unnickled blades of all other well known and common HJ knives. Just my observation and opinion.

Concerning the painted emblem of the one knife shown here: In my files I did find a comparable emblem (from "Mudnor" at "axisforum"). There you see the correct appearance of such an etched emblem. It is the rarest one of the three doubtless period emblems (1. flag, 2. HJ Diamond and 3. swaz in circle). But in the correct emblem the middle circleplate (with the swaz) is raised, therefore NOT painted.

Regards,

Besides as mentioned the different types of motifs on the handles, the different etched and plain type of nickel plated blades are another interesting aspect of these knives. Which would lend credibility (at least IMO) to them being more of a decorative addition to a uniform versus a tool for camping. With the ordinary camping types of knives what is sometimes seen in use in period photos of outdoor activities. With (if I got it correctly) Kurt Daluege the one who was assigned to Berlin and with his men fought against the Stennes Revolt, which prompted Hitler’s open letter to him proclaiming "SS Mann, deine Ehre heißt Treue!”. And then promoting both Daluege and Himmler to SS-Obergruppenführer, with Daluege the SS leader of northern Germany, while Himmler was put in charge of the southern SS units.

And this early period was a time (IMO) when makers felt free to engage in 'market forces-free enterprise' for whatever they made. Because the government and/or NSDAP was not in control at that time of how they conducted their businesses. Which of course changed later when Hitler came to power - and the various edicts were put in place. But more to the point with the Hitler Youth knives, an early (unfortunately undated) RZM document specifies a chrome/nickel alloy blade (13-14.5% chrome). Which suggests to me that under its control the intention was that the only knife that an HJ/DJ member would have to purchase was the standard knife that was made to a better more durable standard - that would be equally suitable for either use in the field, or as an accessory to a uniform. FP

Produced by Gladiatorwerk Wusthof and EICKHORN, I believe these were prototypes for HJ, SS and Party Leaders (insignias on the pommel and variations in blade mottos) for a short period pre-RZM and probably when the SA Dagger was introduced. I have a photo in my files showing one of this type in wear with the first type HJ round membership pin being worn on the kid's hat.

Ron, If it's the same photo that I am thinking of where the youngster is also wearing a bed roll, pack, and what appears to be a canteen and shovel then we are on the same page. Also having on his belt what very well could be a Gladiatorwerk-Wusthof type of knife. And too indistinct IMO in the photo to see if it is decorated or not. But I think that to speculate that they are prototypes of belt knives to be worn by HJ, SS, and Party Leaders. Whose hilts have a partial resemblance to the Kurzes Seitengewehr 98, that were actually being worn by otherwise ordinary children (as the picture clearly shows) could be something of a "stretch" (at least IMO). Regards, FP

These all have a very distinct crossguard and, coupled with the hat insignia and time period of the photo, leave no doubt in my mind. The period uniform and belt loop retaining strap position also match.

Hello Wotan,

There are actually 4 variants of the pommel etch on the Carl Wüsthof version : HJ diamond, HJ flag ( with 2 sub variants !), SS runen and the swast.

From Eickhorn I have only found an HJ diamond version so far.

Also note that the grips are made of wood, indicating very early production.

Best regards,

Herman

Fantastic collection Herman,congrats


Stingray

Hermann, that´s a truely impressive pic! Although I have been aware of it I did not mention the forth variant because up to now I have only seen faked "SS" ones or conversions from denazified other variants. But yours obviously seem to be right as rain! Please, can you show us details just for the pleasure to see?
To my best knowledge the material of the grips is not wood but a kind of "plastic" or hard rubber(sorry, I do not remember the right name in the moment).

Although I also collect "wearing" pics and do own about 1700 of them up to now I have not seen a "wearing..." pic with such a knife, would like to see one too.

Regards,

Wotan, While I'm reasonably certain that I have a digital copy archived somewhere, that will need some searching. And my best recollection is that Ron posted it on the (pinned) WAF "DJ" discussion. But when I went there to obtain a link to post here - the image for some reason was no longer available. So it's not lost, just temporally unavailable unless someone else has it. Best Regards, Fred

Wotan, Stingray,

Thx, here is another pic of the 4 main Carl Wüsthof pommel etch variants and one of the 2 flag variants.

I have a "in wear" picture, but is a .bmp format which I cannot post here.

And the grips are made of black wood, just like some of the WWI fighting knifes.

Best regards,

Herman

Herman, With all due respect for your extraordinary knowledge and experience with the HJ knives as a group, I think that Wotan's suggestion may be worth a second look. Because while I may have seen one or two examples that at first glance I thought were wood, a closer look either left me thinking not or perhaps undecided. With the RZM specifications permitting a choice of hard rubber or Bakelite (plastic). And Bakelite very often having a very finely divided (like baking flour) wood particle filler. With the end product a more consistent, cheaper faster and more durable checkered grip (at least IMO). But I'm also not a specialist, and there may be some examples out there that I just haven't had a chance to look at. Best Regards, Fred

Herrmann:

Any chance of seeing the Eickhorn version... lots of pictures for Eickhorn maniacs like me?

John

Here is the "wearing..." pic from Herman. He sent it to me and allowed publishing here.

Thank you Herman!

Regards,

Wotan,


The knife in that period pic looks like a WW1 trench knife like this one, check out the eagle head shape of the pommel.


Regards Mac 66

Mac 66, I think the one in Herman´s pic has the distinct wider crossguard, not the narrow one you do show.

Btw here is my youth "honor" knife. It´s the diamond-pommel variant and moreover seems to be a variant with a slightly smaller etched pommel panel. Has the "Blut und Ehre" Panel on the blade.

Regards,

[quote=wotan]Mac 66, I think the one in Herman´s pic has the distinct wider crossguard, not the narrow one you do show.


Wotan,

Yes your right the one in the pic has the wider crossguard/fingerguard but the eagle shape pommel is more pronounced & looks very much like the one on the WW1 trench knife i show so maybe they were different variations of these honour bayos ?, i have seen these Honour Bayonets in plain trench knife form with no etching on the pommel or blade, i guess they were used as a trench knife during the Weimar period from 1919-1933 & during that time period the pommel & blade was etched to be used as hj honour knifes, SS honour knifes ect ?

Thats a nice one you show !

Regards Mac 66.

Here is my amateur's attempt to do a side by side of the period photo, and the trench knife that MAC 66 posted. From my personal sense of it, it's not just the crossguards that are different but the pommel in the photo seems to be a little longer (and there also seem to be some shadows underneath the belt and cross guard - but none under what would be if present underneath a press stud on the side of the pommel). I also saw a few signs with Wotan's knife that the grip plates could possibly be wood. With the problems with some others that I've seen being what could be some refurbishing with repairs and refinishing (such as that seen for example with some SS dagger grips) that can make it hard to determine from an image just what (if anything) has been done to a particular item. Not that I'm saying that is the case with Wotan's knife which looks more like a normal set of used wood grips than some others, which for me is a plus. Best Regards, Fred

Hello Wotan,
Very interesting version of the Carl Wûsthof HJ honor that you have: another variation of the diamond pommel etch! Thx for showing!

Hi John,
Here is the Eickhorn version:
- pic 1: first etched blade from the right
- pic 2: left pommel etch.

Everything is different: shape of the blade, hilt and finger guard, wooden grip plates, rivets, blade and pommel etches, scabbard, ...etc. But like most of the Carl Wüsthofs, they are also unmarked (no Eickhorn squirrel). The features are completely identical to the Eickhorn figthing knifes of that period though.
I only have seen 2 Eickhorn HJ honors so far.

Best regards,

Herman

[quote=Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)]

I only have seen 2 Eickhorn HJ honors so far.

--------------------------

A double edged HJ Honor stiletto dirk with a SS Motto- that's also a Eickhorn ?!
That's a WoW! for me.
Fantastic grouping. A real pleasure to view.
Congrats Herman.

Serge

Thank you for showing these, Herr Mann.

A couple more Eickhorns to add to my want list... it never seems to end, does it?

John

John, I'm sure that Herman will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that it may only be one example that he is showing. Also being in agreeemnt that it looks like a wood gripped version because of the way that the diamonds have worn (not unlike some roughly comparable pistol grips). Best Regards, Fred

That is off course twice the same one.

Herman

Just as a matter of personal curiosity, Eickhorn made some trademarked fighting style knives with 6 inch (15 cm) blades circa the First World War in the KS 98 style with the (false) bayonet press studs. And later without (with some having hard rubber grips). But they both have the flat style ricasso’s with a single edge like the plain blade style knife to the right instead of being completely two edged. Also knowing that some completely unmarked so-called “commercial” Eickhorn combat bayonets were identified by the way that they were made when compared to some same period standard production marked examples. With my question being does anyone have an Eickhorn marked fighting knife with this style double edged blade that could be looked at to add to the discussion? Best Regards, Fred

I have two early Eickhorn fighting knives, both double edged, one with ricasso and one without.

John

Thank you John . If there was someone who had some of these I was fairly sure that it would be you as a specialist. With the back to back squirrels generally I believe 1906 to the very early 1920's? And there is one other from that time frame with that type of TM that comes to mind with a frog stud type of steel scabbard. That besides the flat ricasso (and spine-sides), has a pronounced false edge and small back fuller that is completely blued. But it also has what appears to be an operating bayonet catch mechanism, so it really isn't I think as much a fighting knife as it is a later WW I era dual purpose bayonet. Best Regards, Fred

Looking at pictures is good, but comparing objects side by side is much better in my opinion:

Here is the unmarked HJ honor knife next to an identical fighting knife, marked Eickhorn.

Also note that even the scabbards have the same features!

Last pictures shows also 2 more Eickhorn marked fighting knifes with different blade type but typical guards.

Best regards,

Herman