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#293453 01/04/2014 01:08 AM
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den70 Offline OP
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Hi Gentlemen.
I would like to know your opinion about RAD hewer production Krebs - "FatMan."
As far as these subject was produced during the Third Reich. If this original hewer, it is an early period produced or prototype?
Why does it have such a name. It is caused by the shape of the blade or the handle thickness.
Maybe have you more information, not from (LTC) Johnson books?
Best regards Den.

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den70 #293454 01/04/2014 02:49 AM
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Den,

My understanding was that the Krebs "Fatman" was so called due to the width of the blade. There has always been a big difference of opinion on whether these were period produced or post-1945 as souvenirs for GIs. I can't say for certain except to say they are a variant that remains desirable to collectors. I would buy one of the price were right.


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Billy G. #293456 01/04/2014 05:51 AM
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Den, I believe in these. at least in this Fat Man version you show being the 'notched blade' variant, to be authentic pre-1945 production. A quality 'Heavy' RAD.

Ron Weinand has a story of a veteran bringing a few of these into a show that he 'liberated' towards the end of the war.

Best of The New Year !

Serge

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Diskussed a lot of times before. Because of several hints/proofs (eg trademark, trend to leightweight, Praxenform) these ugly hybride edged weapons were found to be post may 45 by serious and experienced collectors.
Nothing but a wishful thinking (because of ownership and money) that these hybrides could be original.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #293468 01/04/2014 06:09 PM
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Fred Stephens spoke to these a few years ago and stated that they were pre-1945 produced.
Perhaps he might elaborate?
smile

wotan #293469 01/04/2014 06:11 PM
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den70 Offline OP
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Guys, thank you for your answers.
I read the FJS article about this kind hewer, in which he writes that the thickness on ALL grip the hewers RAD production Krebs was thicker than the rest of hewers RAD other producers. And so the name "Fat Man " was caused by thick horn grip but not the unusual shape of the blade . He also writes that the blade of this species had a higher quality steel blades that may imply the use of this species as entrenching tools . A metal scabbard fittings indicates early production period , even when factory Solingen not save on materials. Just know that a lot of these hewers were sold Atwood , and it may be some negative things , but just know that some of cutlasses bought directly from the veterans. Maybe Ron Weynand can still tell about this interesting dagger .
Hopefully that will be found documents that confirm or refute the production of these daggers prior to '45.
I wish you all a Happy New Year!
P.S. Paul, I talked to FJS, and he believes these original hewers were produced in the early period.

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den70 #293473 01/04/2014 08:37 PM
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While we await a post from Ron or Frederick, perhaps one of you experienced collectors have run across a 'Thin-man' RAD hewer variant. If you know where is please let me know as I been looking for one to go along with my 'Fat Man'. smile

Can't call Jim Atwood up anymore to order one up so I ask anyone (not just 'serious and experienced' collectors) to lead me to one. Perhaps one was seen on Militaria 3-2-1, or Alegro, Czech republic, local gun show.

'Thin Man' top, below standard size RAD.

Serge



Photo from: German Daggers of WW2, by Thomas Johnson, vol.2 pg.322

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Den,

You're quite correct about the name coming from the thickness of the stag grip plates. I was looking at an old copy of Angolia's "Daggers, Bayonets & Fighting Knives of Hitler's Germany", published in 1971, earlier today. Page 90 has a nice picture of a Fatman & explanation of where the name came from.

I believe Ron W. had previously stated he vet purchased at least one of these.


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Billy G. #293480 01/05/2014 02:38 AM
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Reproduction? - Recognition! by FJStephens (!) states page 93:
The Krebs RAD hewer, some times called the "Fat Man" pattern because of the extremely wide blade (!!!). Not a reproduction as such, but a parts, post-war assembly. All the fittings are original, but the blades were made up in the early 1960´s to complete the assembly.
At least in 1981 FJS has had this profound opinion....

All people naturally are free to buy any phantasy, hybride exemplares of any daggers for their hard earned money. But it has nothing to do with collecting original and historic IIIR daggers.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #293482 01/05/2014 03:00 AM
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I for one, wouldn't even bother considering such a dagger, to me, they are just fantasy.
Why even bother buying such a piece when you can get a " no question asked " original, textbook RAD Hewer ???????? Hello, earth calling the moon ! cry

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patrice #293484 01/05/2014 03:12 AM
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Wow, thanks Wotan. I knew I had read the blade theory somewhere smile


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wotan #293487 01/05/2014 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted By: wotan
Reproduction? - Recognition! by FJStephens (!) states page 93:
The Krebs RAD hewer, some times called the "Fat Man" pattern because of the extremely wide blade (!!!). Not a reproduction as such, but a parts, post-war assembly. All the fittings are original, but the blades were made up in the early 1960´s to complete the assembly.
At least in 1981 FJS has had this profound opinion....

Regards,



When evidence comes to convince someone to change their position on a artifact as was quoted in Frederick's seminal work, a true researcher will always let the evidence lead the way, regardless if it was already printed.

I had discussed 'The Fat-Man' with Frederick back in 2007 at one of the big shows. By that time he had changed his opinion on them, and believed them to be period produced (notched blade variant). However, someone ring Fred up and see what his opinion is currently.

As Billy has stated, Ron W. had seen the 'veteran provenance' in the form the 'Fat Man being brought into a gun show many years ago along with a box of other unusual RAD variants, all from Krebs I believe.
Between Ron and Frederick there over 100 years of experience. Period variants do exist, and have existed. Post war humped-up 'variants' are the fraudsters 'play' with stories to match, often displayed on former east bloc militaria auction sites.

I have yet to meet a REAL EXPERT who seen it ALL, and has been right ALL the time on everything.
And we will never meet a real one either, since it is estimated that over 50% of all edged weapons were destroyed at the end of the war.
However interesting there are surviving photo 'in-wear' evidence of models that have never surfaced. So what does that tell someone ?

I have found over the years that one has to keep an open mind, but also well tempered with knowledge of the many decades of fantasy pieces, and what to look for.
The truth is out there. As Paul H. says; "Never say never".

Best of The Quest in 2014,
Serge

wotan #293488 01/05/2014 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted By: wotan


All people naturally are free to buy any phantasy, hybride exemplares of any daggers for their hard earned money. But it has nothing to do with collecting original and historic IIIR daggers.

Regards,


wotan, Ok, you don't believe in the 'Fat-Man' RAD. What is your opinion on the Thin-Man RAD ?

Serge

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Here's my story: in the early 1970s at a small gun show in Edwardsville, IL an army veteran came in with a box of daggers he sent home (had the original box addressed to his family in rural Edwardsville with date cancelled stamps and bring back papers. In the box were several MINT unissued daggers: RAD EM and Officer with no mottos on the blade, RAD EM and Officer with the motto on the reverse side, RAD EM and officer with no marks on the blade and TWO RAD FAT MAN (just like Fred said with the notch and Krebs TM). Also had some accoutrement and insignias. He claimed to have been in a factory and taken them out of storerooms that were full and others in his unit did the same thing.
I was too stupid (and poor at the time to buy it all and too much of a novice to write down the unit and information) and didn't buy the stuff, but it left such an impression on me that I remember it like it was yesterday.
This was the same show where the St. Louis fireman came with a car trunk full of US Medals he and his buddy took out of the US Army Records Center during the famous fire that occurred there and I could have had MOH in the case for next to nothing, but, again, no money and too afraid that someone would be hunting us down for buying stolen government property and I might loose my Pharmacist's license. Oh, those were the days.


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My personal opinion is, and therefore a "vet buy" could be easily possible, that these ugly, undimensioned hybrides were somethink like the field day daggers, made especially for the occupying forces.
The blades are common "Waidpraxen" blades which were produced These and earlier times for this special hunting tool (see contemporary adds). When the real blades for RAD hewers did extinguish these Praxen-blades on store were used as they were about the same dimemnsions.
Keep in mind that these blades have a mm which NEVER was used on any other blade of KREBS, that the "Arbeit adelt" is on the wrong side of the blade and the blade carries the approvement of the RAD leadership which should have been mentioned in any regulation of the RAD which is not the case.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

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Serge, personally I look at them also as phantasy daggers.
There is a small chance that they were a contemporary prototype to come away from the heavy weight hewers but there were already produced leightweight hewers and therefore the need for the small blade hewer was not there. And keep in mind that Hierl appreciated the heavy hewer as he did wear it to the end, never did wear the leader´s model.
Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #293521 01/06/2014 05:52 AM
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Wotan, I would normally agree with you, but too much quality to have been produced after the war started and ended. I believe these were a trial run before the war began and were never issued. The blade style of the Fatman was used in a foreign dagger before the war and was in one of the Solingen catalogs from the 1930s for a Miner's Organization used in a foreign country. I don't remember which company or catalog, but it was unimportant at the time and I should have noted it.
Also, I have seen several of the post war US forces "awards" daggers that were prizes for Inter-allied Sporting Events. These were from the Eickhorn factory and I talked with the US Lt. Colonel who purchased them from Eickhorn and he had the blades engraved with "FIELD DAY" and they were made from existing Eickhorn parts. You encounter these at times today and were made with 1st Mod. Luft Aluminum and 2nd Mod. Luft grips, etc. He told me there were some SA Daggers that were also used as prizes. The games took place in Germany in the summer and fall of 1945 on large unit basis. He was on the games committee and was from the 17th Air Borne Division and I met him at the University of Illinois where he was a professor after the war. Somewhere I have literature on the games and I will try to find it.
BTW: Hirel's was a presentation with a fake damascus blade and this was why he wore it instead of the Leader's model IMO. I have seen this dagger years ago and it is impressive.


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Ron, I always appreciate your vast and overwhelming knowledge and experience on III R edged weapons. But in this case (trial run, never issued) there stands the triangle of the RAD leadership against the assumption. This triangle would proof that the sample has been approved and introduced.

I cannot speak about the blade of the Hirl hewer, I have never seen it nor have I seen a picture of it. BTW, who did present him the hewer with the fske Damast blade? But I know (from photographic dokumentation) that Hierl did wear at least TWO first model hewers, the earlier one with the prominent full stag grip and later on (when the officer´s model was long ago established) one with the common metal nose grip. Therefore Hierl did change his hewer but still did wear the massive model.

Regards,


wotan, gd.c-b#105

"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
wotan #293532 01/06/2014 07:03 PM
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Gentlemen , if you let me tell my thoughts about the fatman.
Sorry for my bad English.

We were thinking maybe it hewers late post war production 1950-1960 years. But we knows this is not a postwar late productions- We have collectors evidence which we believe, about buying items from vets who brought these trophy hewers just after the war.

Maybe it was production as a souvenir for GI. All the famous so-called "Field day" daggers were either collected from completing real daggers and had memorable inscriptions and etchings on it. These souvenir daggers were more decorative objects than utilitarian, and are known in single copies . "FATMAN" realy ugly boy), for trophy and souvenir. I think to find two identical "Field day" daggers will be very difficult , not to mention any small-edition production . I think it was manual assembly. They souvenir daggers were staffed parts of light alloys. These parts was available storage at the end of the war. Hewers Fatman, was produced small-edition production , judging by the number of items in the present collections. Hewers hardware used on heavy-metal blade of a high-quality steel , and quite untypical shape of the blade for ceremonial weapons of the period. Using the organization motto on the ceremonial hewer and not use memorable etching with an appropriate inscription , also finds no analogy.

If we assume that the Hewers were manufactured before 1945, it is necessary to find justification motto etched on the back side (not typical for nazi ceremonial weapons ) . Blade forms not typical for edged weapons have typikal stamp RAD and not typikal trademark. Perhaps this has the following explanation. Standard cleaver originally intended for officers , separate models for non-commissioned officers were not. Krebs company released an experimental batch cutlasses for non-commissioned officers using the blades from storage - heavy household knives, which has etching the motto of the organization. Location motto on the left side of the blade was due , and that the utility of a cutlass that planned to use it as an entrenching tool , followed by sharpening (as shown by a special notch to facilitate sharpening ) . In this case, the motto was clearly visible to the owner. Use of heavy metals for completing evidence of early production period , when there was a question of saving materials.
Perhaps this option instead cutlass for non-commissioned officers was rejected, and was decided on the establishment of cutlass for senior officers . Since life has shown the ineffectiveness same hewers for real work .

Ron did you mean leader dagger miner's from Holler catalog 1941? Sorry for bad pictures.

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den70 #293533 01/06/2014 07:35 PM
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No, the one I saw had the Fatman style blade.


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I asc FJS about Fatman and his opinions, he answer me:

TEXT FOR GDC RAD KREBS FEATURE:
The current interest in the matter of the RAD “Fat Man” Hewer has been brought to my attention – with a request that I clarify some statements previously made; and which are in conflict with my comments made in later years.
The information published in my Reproduction? Recognition! (R?R!) book, 1976 edition, pages 58-59, does indeed state that the Krebs “Fat Man” was constructed of original parts. This information was relayed to me by Jack Angolia, with whom I was in regular contact during the 1960s and ‘70s. It was also stated to me that issue and marketing of the hewer was curtailed because of the war effort.
As this information seemed be a reasonable explanation to account for this hewer version, there were no obvious grounds to question it; I believe that Jack Angolia genuinely believed in this account, and I accepted it at face value.
Another piece of information related to me, at that time, was that when Atwood found the supply of Krebs hewers, there were no scabbards with them. So Atwood had Krebs produce new scabbards so he could market the items more effectively. I believe that this account of the hewers and the scabbards had come from Atwood himself, so there seemed to be no reason to doubt the explanation.
The photograph of the “Fat Man” hewer which I used in both editions of the R?R! book (1976, and 1981 respectively), had come to me from Andy Southard Jr. Andy, who was based in Salinas, California, was a highly competent professional photographer, and who additionally collected Third Reich militaria. The RAD hewer in question was, I believe, the specimen owned by Jack Angolia, and had been photographed for inclusion in a book that Jack was writing for Bender Publications. So all the information I had about these “Fat Man” hewers, at that time, was based on what Jack had told me, and the photograph which Andy had given me. I had yet to examine an actual specimen at first hand.
Even in those earlier days – 1960s-‘70s-‘80s – there were two main schools of thought about the Krebs “Fat Man” hewer. The first of these was that of it being an original “parts” item (as described above); the second line of thought was that the whole thing was a total fantasy, dreamt up by Col. Atwood. Unfortunately, because of some of the shenanigans that Atwood had been up to, there was grave distrust about some of the more curious pieces he was marketing – and as a result of this the status of the so-called “Fat man” hewer was viewed with suspicion.
My personal opinion concerning this RAD dagger was revised in the early 1990s, when I finally obtained an actual example, and was able to consider it with the benefit of first-hand examination and study – the result of which was the article that I published in the “Armourer” magazine. To briefly summarise this, I came to the conclusion that the “Fat Man” Hewer was indeed completely authentic – and not only that I consider it to be a very early production piece.
The basis of this opinion was created through the following observations:
a) The trademark on the blade is that of a Crowned letter “K” stamped into the blade (not etched) and this is consistent with early period Krebs items.
b) The hilt is made of iron (generally indicative of the early period) and not the more usually encountered alloy type hilt which superceded it.
c) The whole Hewer is constructed to a working standard – far more robust that the usual type of hewer; and the notch on the blade is (in my opinion) designed to be accommodated in some type of clamp to facilitate the sharpening of the blade – this was a real working tool.
Why the design should be abandoned, and replaced with the more familiar pattern of hewer is unknown to me, but I do believe that the “Fat Man” is genuinely an early production piece and exclusively produced by Krebs.
I have a “regular” Krebs hewer and the “Fat Man” hewer which I am preparing to dispose of. If anyone desires further photographs of these for comparison purposes, then please contact me and I will be happy to supply images high-lighting the particular portions that are of interest. My direct e-mail is: stephensfj@yahoo.com
I hope that the above explanation answers the various questions, concerning why I amended my original opinion to my currently expressed statement. Like everyone else in this business, I continue to learn – and where better facts seem to clearly advance our knowledge, then I am happy to set the record straight.
Frederick J. Stephens

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den70 #295166 02/27/2014 02:33 PM
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Den,

Thank you for sharing with us Fred's current thoughts on the Fat Man hewer. I've always found this to be an interesting topic. It appears to still be both fascinating & will likely remain controversial.


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