UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum Anatomy of HJ enamel handle emblem

Today I have received a parcel with HJ knife which was recently found. Condition of this one is really poor but handle emblem was promiceing. I always wanted to have one uninserted. Here it is with bent prongs and marked RZM and M1/13 (L. Christian Lauer, Nürmberg).

This is how it was constructed and should look.

Hope this will help.

Gottlieb,


Thats a nice solid red/opaque enamel Hj knife diamond





Regards Mac 66.

First time I have seen one of these solid reds unmounted,
Very interesting.....Are these solid reds common to any particular maker?.....Reguards

Gottlieb,

The diamond insignum, which you show is an obvious fake: it is the version which has silverich paint/lacker that peels off (not even enameled). It is easily seen on your first picture.

That said, most of the fakes (also the blue and green ones) are mounted in that way (with prongs) and have RZM markings. If I find some time, I will post a couple pictures of other RZM marked fake diamonds.

ONE AND ONLY WARNING TO MAC66: you will not start your full red discussion here again! If you try so anyway, all will be removed and you risk suspension from the forum!


David,

You can find all the arguments about full red diamonds in this topic:


http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259949#Post259949


Best regards,

Herman

Herman,


I did not start this thread, i only answered a question on the subject,


Have a nice day.



Regards Mac 66.

I am not taking a position here other than to question if what we are seeing is actually a painted finish(?). Because both painted and plated metals can show peeling when the integrity of the surface has been compromised. And silver paint does not normally use "silver" instead of a finely divided other type of metal such as aluminum. But in the images they seem to show the "toning" (Ie: tarnishing) that is common with silver coins and silver (solid and plated) dinnerware. Unless of course it's the lighting - but that is not my sense of the images. Fred

I've got a question. Were diamonds known to be period replaced when broken by the owner? Any period advertising to that effect? Any regulations specific to repairs?

--dj--Joe

Sorry guys but Mod Herman V has Banned me from taking about solid red diamonds on this forum, over reaction on Hermans part but what can i do, he deleted my post with some useful information on the subject, what a sad place this forum has turned into these days


Mac 66.

With all the respect to Herman knowledge about HJ weaponery I can't accept his opinion this one is a fake. This emblem was removed off the knife shown below. It was a late ricasso HJ marked RZM M7/2 dated 1941 or 1942 (I cleansd the blade but I'm not absolutely sure which year it is). I had to break the hndle to take the emblem off it. Here I will post some pictures of the dagger and removing proces. In my unproffesional opiniom it was impossible to put this emblem into the handle and impossible to take of the handle to insert the emblem and reassemble it back. This emblem was always in this knife and the knife is legit period not altered this days.

This pictures shows the dagger when I received it.

Here are the pictures where I had to put he handle back together and show markings. As I have mentioned above :

1. This dagger is period and emblem was period inserted.
2. It was impossible to put the emblem into the handle when the dagger is in this condition without damaging prongs.
3. Rivets were untouched and the handle plate was never removed before I did broke it.

I know what I say because I have found a lot of stuff in the dirt durring my explorations. This dagger was not altered.

By the way I'm not trying to mess here I just know what I have.

And the rest of the pictures. Sorry for its size. If someone is interested I will send a big size pictures.

Gottlieb,


This is more solid evidence that hj knifes were fitted with solid red diamonds during the period, thanks for posting this, much appreciated ;), pretty sure the date on your knife is 1940.



Regards Mac 66.

I don't buy it, Gottlieb, everything is eaten, even the steel blade, protected by the scabbard, but the (fake) diamond gets out almost intact...

I have seen many fake and/or broken HJ knifes like this, put in wet ground for some time (with protection on the diamond)... and then sold as relics from a famous battlefield... that is what happened with the piece that you are showing!

Not saying that you have tried to fool us... but somebody surely did!

Best regards,

Herman

No comment!

i was NOT speaking to you anyway !

Sorry You do not want to belive it - this the matter of a wide opened mind. I don't belive the guy I get the knife would try to fool me or someone else for 50 PLN ($16) - thats what I paid for this crap :-).

Have You ever found a dagger in the ground ? I did several times (sa, SS) and belive me steel parts were always eaten but enameld pins and nickel silver eagles were intact. All I had to do was gently cleaning. So I did with this HJ emblem and belive me there was a lot of rust and patina - old patina under it and were the emblem touched the handle.

This is my lasy input here.

Best regards to All
Piotr

Thanks for the link Herman, I will do my research........

When I have some more time to take a good look at the pictures I think that I will have a better idea of what was happening with this knife. With my thanks to Gottlieb for posting them. And it certainly would have been interesting to have physically looked at the knife in person as it was examined (no complaints with the pictures, just a personal preference). But I have seen enough buried industrial objects, firearms, western and battlefield artifacts etc, to know that where and in what kind of soil has a bearing. Not the least of which is the fact that zinc is a sacrificial metal, and plating (and paint) sometimes can do a good job still protecting the base metal even as the zinc (in this case) around it disintegrates. And while there are fakers around, why bury an intact and what seems to be original knife - which certainly would have brought a lot more money repaired with "correct" (postwar or not) parts?

sacrificial anode

PS: I've also seen some period zinc dagger components that almost crumbled to the touch with no visible exposure to water or soil. And some supposed "precursor" knives for example that were made using later manufacturing techniques, so I do understand the need to be cautious. That said, I did not see anything with my first look at the pictures that tripped an alarm bell. Fred

What valuable parts do you see here, Fred?

A heavily damaged blade, a brooken off fingerguard hilt, a missing reverse grip plate, the other grip plate brooken, a scabbard shell without leather... oh, yes the blade buffer is present!

These were leftovers, from (maybe an original) HJ-knife, with zero market value, put into the ground and an obviously fake diamond added.

What protection against degradation got these thin metal prongs without a reverse grip plate present anyway???

That will be all from my side. This topic should actually be moved to a relic forum.

Best regards,

Herman

It's with those items that are in relic condition that sometimes are the best indicators of how the items were originally made. And this includes the Hitler Youth knives (IMO) for those who are interested in how the various blades were manufactured. With the example here an SS dagger that shows the different levels of decomposition of the materials that were used. With the eagle reasonably intact, and a surprisingly large amount of the nickel plated steel. So I don't know what you are referring to with the prongs that would have been inside a plastic protective shell (the grips) - which admittedly is not the same as encapsulation. But also presumably not made of steel or bare zinc, with possibly a layer of clear lacquer (or protectant) to help preserve the silver or silver colored layer. And as an observation, I don't think that the upper cross guard of the dagger here was broken off - but much more likely IMO it simply disintegrated and fell away. Unless of course anyone thinks that somebody did this to conceal some fakery with an SS dagger to make a profit(?). But that is not how I see it. Best Regards, Fred

As they say: "I don't have a dog in this fight", but I am interested in how they were manufactured. So here are a few minimally enhanced versions of the images that were posted. With one being what appears to be frozen rivets, and with what seems (at the time) to be an unbroken grip plate. The obverse side. And another with a corroded blade (I've seen worse) along with a closeup of the maker's logo. And looking at it in total and mentally comparing it to various items that I've seen in the past I still don't have alarm bells going off in my head. So I think that some kind of visual explanation may be needed to definitively illustrate something that I may have missed - assuming of course that the images show something else to a different observer other than what they appear to be here. Best Regards, Fred

PS: When zinc corrodes it typically leaves a whitish powder residue, so at some point somebody probably lightly cleaned the handle portion with a softer type of brush.

As the proof of my statement here I can send the dagger to have an in hand inspection. If I knew this problem about solid red diamonds I would never remove it off the grip. I would leave it as it was. First 4 pictures shows dagger as it was when I have received it. Dagger was uncleaned, grip with diamond was unbroken, rivets were untouched. Believe me or not. After Herman's post I had to jump into the trash basket to and look for the knife because I kept only the diamond. Fortunetly it was there. I have cleaned the blade to be sure of the maker markings. That is whole story.

One question because obviously You know - how to insert a diamond to the knife like this without damaging the prongs and without removing the grip plate ???

When I broke the grip plate rivets were intact and prongs straight properly bent under the grip. If this emblem was replaced this would be a miracle doing it this way....

While I only posted a few images, what you said is and was my sense of what was in them as a group. And as I said before, there were no alarm bells of something being out of place. Best Regards, Fred

I thought so but I wanted to explain my way of thinking...

best
Piotr

Gotlieb,
You are right, these diamonds are real. Some of the newer less experienced collectors do not believe them. No, I do not have one for sale nor will I. Since they are not accepted I will not buy or sell them or other items which is a disservice to history. None the less, an original diamond.
Best Wishes,
Bob

With again my thanks to Piotr Gottlieb , When I first saw the images that he posted I was reasonably certain that this was the physical evidence that earlier, was to a certain degree either lacking, or could possibly be argued about for one reason or another. And that is not taking into account the recognized manufacturing variations, the various opaque/other NSDAP pins etc. - or the differences between the early RZM specifications and later knives.

With the two images here confirming his earlier statements (IMO) - I would ask readers to pay special attention to the fresh appearance of the broken edges contrasted with the outer surface of the grip plate. And I still do not "have a dog in this fight" - being more interested in how the Germans made things and dealt with the various obstacles they faced in manufacturing. Best Regards, Fred

Here are some pics of a knife that I came across some time ago.
M7/36 marked......The diamond had the required movement, but was not well seated....IMO I was somewhat suspicious of it, but I too have "No dog in this fight", just the search for the truth where ever it may lie.......I will leave each to draw your own conclusion......Reguards Gents

Hi Gladiator,

I had an RZM M7/36 Hj knife with solid red diamond just like yours, diamond had good movement & was seated a little high in the griplate recess, if the diamond has movement it means it was fitted correctly & if the origional rivets have not been tampered with there is nothing to worry about imo, thanks for showing your hj knife here, we are all living & learning



Regards Mac 66.

Voos (RZM M7/2) is probably the most copied maker of HJ's, I have seen many postwar versions.

The one shown here in relic condition is not an original: it is lacking the very typical ricasso of late Voos made HJ- knife, also the rivets (what is left from them) are not the right ones and the diamond insignia... well that we knew already.

Personally I believe that more can be learned from beauty, than from deterioration... for obvious reasons!

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,


I have to disagree with your statement that the Relic M7/2 is not origional, please explain the main differances to the Ricasso on the relic knife to your knifes because i see no differance.



Mac 66.

I'm here to learn, and beauty is relative. And for myself untouched factory originals are at the top of the list, with the ones posted seeming to me to have had some "tuning up" at some point to try and remove some corrosion and aging?

I also don't quite understand what the differences are supposed to be because in the image posted the two ricasso's are not quite the same - with one appearing to be wider than the other. And we know that they were not made using computers - so perhaps some clarification could be provided? Best Regards, Fred

.... and the sun is on its way around the earth which is ofcourse flat and in the middle of our galaxy....

no comment....

Gottlieb,

If you cannot handle the free and honest opinions, which you get here and if you only expect approval for the "treasures" you think you have found: JUST DON'T POST THEM HERE ANYMORE!We will all feel better and save time.

Fred,

I would appreciate if you would stop misforming or twisting any original picture that is posted on this forum.

Best regards,

Herman

Sorry Herman but for me You are the only one here who can not accept solid red diamonds and this only You free and honest opinion. It is not my fault. Honestly I have never read the thread about red solid emblems. I have posted my thread here to show how emblems are constutced on the reverse side. I have been involved in this disscusion and took the side of "belivers" because I KNOW WHAT I HAVE.

Thats all - peace to You and Marry Christmas...

Gottlieb,

He is not the only one

I don't know who's right or wrong or if anyone is. I'd like to learn more about the subject and feel the discussion could be handled more tactfully.

--dj--Joe

Gents,
Just a quick observation. Am I the only one to see that in Gladiator's closeup the recess in the grip is too large for the diamond? I could be wrong, but on the ones I have (and have seen) the diamond always fits the grip recess closely.
This happens to be a "solid red", but I would have said the same if it were a pebbled version. I'm just thinking the diamond isn't original to the grip (a replacement).
As for the relic condition knife, I'm just not convinced. I have NEVER seen a pristine conditioned HJ with a solid red diamond, there must be a reason for that. They simply can not be so "elusive" in such a commonly available knife...

Jerry

When the topic became an item of interest some time ago, I did not have any really stong feelings myself one way or the other because with many of the TR items I’ve collected they could deviate in the small details depending on the time period and maker. And I wondered if the RZM which had established the original standards for the knives really maintained an absolutely strict control? Which it seems they did not - because they allowed the use of substitutions and changes in specifications - but unfortunately without a written surviving ‘paper trail’ or documentation.

That said, and speaking to just the first HJ knife, among the objections are: “The one shown here in relic condition is not an original: it is lacking the very typical ricasso of late Voos made HJ- knife, also the rivets (what is left from them) are not the right ones”. And that the reconfiguration and reuse of an image was not appreciated. “I would appreciate if you would stop misforming or twisting any original picture that is posted on this forum.”

So I will no longer use the image mentioned for comparison purposes. Which is something that I first did in preference to using two other sources that I knew of on other forums. With items that although they have a used look, to me seem to perhaps be in a more or less reasonably decent as manufactured condition (ie: not a lot of reworking). And in deference to the request to not modify images, I won’t be posting enlarged or side by side images from the two links posted below. And readers can form their own judgements as to what is or is not in those images.

Voos 1940 post nbr 46

Voos 1938

PS: “also the rivets (what is left from them) are not the right ones” IMO is a non sequitur if the link I posted earlier on sacrificial anodes is looked at in context. Best Regards, Fred