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Dave,

I,ve seen these photos somewhere before, maybe on another forum,

my thoughts on these plain scout type knifes with no insignia & the knifes with the hj insignia added is they were common knifes sold to the masses for the use of hunting, fishing, camping ect, ect then someone decided to call them DJ Knifes, BDM knifes ,ect,ect & hump them up & advertise them for sale to make big money, True or False ?

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Originally Posted By: Mac 66
Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
That could be interesting if it were true. Dates of manufacture are unknown at this point.


...

Would carbon dating the steel blade on a DJ give a rough date to when the blade was made, griplates or leather scabbard hanger maybe ?


... we've tried this with 1800 German Naval daggers. One of the leading scientist in Germany and our co-author in the Near East sword book -Prof. Foell - informed us that there is a dating gap about a few 50yrs and the price would be very high, even if possible.
Best;
Hermann

Last edited by Flyingdutchman; 11/15/2013 06:26 PM.
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[quote=Flyingdutchman]

... we've tried this with 1800 German Naval daggers. One of the leading scientist in Germany and our co-author in the Near East sword book -Prof. Foell - informed us that there is a dating gap about a few 50yrs and the price would be very high, even if possible.
Best;
Hermann




Hermann,


Thanks for this info, it was just a thought that came to my head on carbon dating, i hope the word has spread all the way through the collecting community now that these DJ knifes were never used or issued to the DJ members & that most people now recognise them as a humped up knife with added Hj diamond on the scabbard made to deceive collectors, i,ve also noticed you do not see very many of these DJ Knifes for sale on dealers websites now, wonder why !

if anyone here who believes in these DJ knifes has something positive to say about them being a TR period made knife for DJ use lets hear it ?




Regards Mac 66.

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As it regards the dates of manufacture, fakers routinely dated modern copies of RZM daggers, knives (and some sword fakes). And its my belief that manufacturing has proceeded from possibly some leftover pre-zinc TR era ordinary camping knives. But much more likely they are all postwar for the serviceman and others who wanted something to take home when their tour of duty was over. And if you look at what is for sale as we speak, on some dealer websites they were or are still making them well into later modern times. And while I could post some more of the recent discoveries now for sale - the knife I posted earlier should I think suffice as proof of postwar manufacture. A complete postwar fake - as are the others in circulation with maybe a few years difference as to when they were made in batches.

I also have some of the information on the (true) Damascus watered steel types of blades and the analysis done there to try and figure out how and when they were made. But more appropriate IMO was a metallurgical analysis of some period political blades that was done a while back for a now extinct forum.

But let me cut to the chase: It was said once of a notorious California homicide. That if the perpetrator had been filmed committing the acts, he would have still been found not guilty because the jury was going to overlook any and all of the evidence. And by completely avoiding becoming involved in any of the discussions of these small knives - dealers will still find customers to buy them who want to believe" that they are genuine TR artifacts. And that is not even taking taking into account all of the guys whove already been scammed (IMO) in the past - and now have an investment to protect. Fred

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
It was said once of a notorious California homicide. That if the perpetrator had been filmed committing the acts, he would have still been found not guilty because the jury was going to overlook any and all of the evidence. And by completely avoiding becoming involved in any of the discussions of these small knives - dealers will still find customers to buy them who want to believe" that they are genuine TR artifacts. And that is not even taking taking into account all of the guys whove already been scammed (IMO) in the past - and now have an investment to protect. Fred


Indeed. The scammers won't talk and instead leave it up to the desperate owners of such pieces to fight their corner. Dealers quote other dealers in order to legitimise the continued sale of the "DJ" knife and desperate scorn is heaped on those who have the evidence to show that the knife is a humped up fantasy. A ridiculous state of affairs but the times are changing. Common sense and a reliance on history and primary literature are making a long overdue appearance. Some are already finding discussion platforms to be ever more scary places and that's great to see.

Last edited by Nork; 11/17/2013 02:41 PM.
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i Think that the DJ knife was sold at the various souvenir shops all around germany who sold nazi party sovenires. im i wrong? and its never been a regular dj knife, just Another nazi souvenire knife

Last edited by Fredrik; 11/23/2013 07:12 PM.
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I agree with Mac and everyone else that it's a humped up souvenir or "utility" hiking knife.
There is no period catalog/reference that shows the "smaller knife" as an issue/sale item for use by the DJ organization.
The paper bag in itself proves nothing.
It is the standard factory bag for an HJ (or DJ) knife, which were one-and-the-same model for both boy-groups.

But I don't really have a bone in the fight as I prefer the ones that read "Blut und Ehre!" smile

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+foto

received_462724248861202.jpeg (41.72 KB, 167 downloads)
received_790779235212235.jpeg (48.54 KB, 167 downloads)
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I have one with an emblem and initials

received_932933367612519.jpeg (32.61 KB, 164 downloads)
received_1069203813651671.jpeg (43.34 KB, 165 downloads)
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Dave Online Content OP
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A long forgotten discussion.

Any more recent thoughts on these ? Any evidence or photos ?

(I keep hoping we'll see a picture of a BDM girl with a knife)

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I can't add much to this particular discussion, but would like to add this picture from a 1937 F Herder catalouge, it shows that there were other knives specifically aimed at the market for a knife for young boys,( I presume these are DJ) it might go some way to understanding why not all DJ boys were wearing a HJ knife and chose another type.

A translation from the top of the page

"Every boy's desire and pride is a fine sheath knife. So it goes through thick and thin, through rain and sunshine. Everything is cut with a knife, bread, sausage, cheese, twigs and even roots have to be used to dig them up. What does the fine, bright blade look like after a short time! Rust will set in when rubbed, losing polish or leaving black spots. To remedy this evil, we have produced the stainless Constant sheath knife, which is thoroughly stainless and very sharp. Adults also appreciate this sharp knife for boat trips, camps, picnics, hunting and fishing."


Gary

1 - 1.jpeg (158.69 KB, 178 downloads)
1 - 2.jpeg (157.18 KB, 179 downloads)
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Gary
Have you ever seen one of these knives? Very interesting. I have never run into one at any of the big shows.
It is entries like your here that make this a great site, very educational, and historical.
Thank you
Ed

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Dave Online Content OP
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Thanks Gary. Not seen that one before anywhere.

I suspect that most HJ (and fighting knives) were mostly used for "bread, sausage, cheese"

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Ed/Dave

i've never seen anything like it before, I've never seen that exact mark on anything either, the remainder of the catalouge shows all their different kitchen knives with no other military interest. I thought it interesting that they specifically aim the knife for boys obviously aiming at the DJ market.

Gary

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Gary that is cool! - So in their description I'm wondering if it is true stainless [non magnetic]?

Kitchen workers used to call us to take their old tables because they were true stainless [non magnetic] as some were called stainless but a magnet would stick, could rust and were worth very little.

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Just for info. That mark is mentioned in Anthony Carters book. Best.

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A few makers advertised these utility knifes as Jugend Sportsmesser.

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I know not much to look at but it is what it is lol another Jugend Sportsmesser.

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Very interesting additions a this old topic!

Hereunder the Klaas DJ (or small knife) that I believe to be period made.

Best regards,

Herman

1.JPG (138.99 KB, 110 downloads)

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Originally Posted by Baz69
Ed/Dave

i've never seen anything like it before, I've never seen that exact mark on anything either, the remainder of the catalouge shows all their different kitchen knives with no other military interest. I thought it interesting that they specifically aim the knife for boys obviously aiming at the DJ market.

Gary
Gary ,
Do you own this catalog or did someone send you these pictures???
Jim

I have this catalog also and have said on forums that they did target to sell other unofficial knives to the HJ .. Of course no-one cared..
There are more targeted to the HJ and very young boys and girls.
I would post pictures but it is always to big of a hassle here.

Last edited by DAMAST; 02/28/2022 08:01 PM.
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Dave Online Content OP
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Herman,

Does the short Klass have an HJ diamond on the other side ? And what does the scabbard look like ?

Dave

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Originally Posted by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Very interesting additions a this old topic!

Hereunder the Klaas DJ (or small knife) that I believe to be period made.

Best regards,

Herman

NEWS FLASH

NO KIDDING
IT IS IN A CATALOG OF THE PERIOD..
Dave . original small klass is in metal scabbard no swaz anywhere..
Jim

Last edited by DAMAST; 02/28/2022 08:08 PM.
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Jim,

Thanks

As far as "IT IS IN A CATALOG OF THE PERIOD"., am I right in thinking that not all the items in catalogs appeared the same as the pictures ? Or, asked another way, did manufacturers sometimes enhance the products in the catalogs ?

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Hi Dave,

That is correct: no HJ-insignia in grip nor on the scabbard of this small Klaas knife.

And yes, it is in the 1936 Klaas catalog!

Best regards,

Herman

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Klaas catalog 1936'.png (108.91 KB, 155 downloads)

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Here is another one: a bid rough though...

Herman

12.JPG (66.29 KB, 152 downloads)

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Jim

Yes I have this catalouge, I've had it years, been looking for that particular knife since I bought the catalouge but have never found one, good to see you at the SOS.

Gary

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Yes, Gary good show,
I believe we both bought some great items there..!!!!!
I have two of these catalogs (20+ years) and also have a few of these super rare knives in almost mint condition and have seen 4 over the last years.
I sent some pictures of the catalog and my knives to another collector not long ago and was just confused on the timing of your post..
As you know I'm very private about my collection and good to see you also have this catalog..
Yes trademark is in Carter book BUT many collectors think this is a postwar mark. Of course it is NOT..
Hermann
It is always easy to make a positive opinion when it is in a catalog (correct). I posted a picture from the catalog of the (small klass bowie) here or on another forum over 10+years ago now...
DAVE, The old attitude that (they took artistic privilege's in catalogs rarely is the case. Unless it is original art.

Last edited by DAMAST; 03/01/2022 05:18 PM.
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Guys, help me identify the original, please

IMG_20220328_215314_693.jpg (54.44 KB, 93 downloads)
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Your HJ-knife is all original: it is motted RZM only, by Anton Wingen Jr made in 1936.

But you should create a new topic for it, because it does not belong here: this one is about the smaller DJ knifes.

Best regards,

Herman


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There is No proof the small knife in that catalogue is a so called DJ knife, most likely a small utility purpose knife ?

The hj knife was made for the hj & DJ boys to use , it even tells you this on origional hj knife paper packets !

Some guys want to believe they are origional DJ knifes so they do not loose there money or make a profit.

JMO.


Mac 66

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Hello Mac,

I agree that the official HJ-knife was the same, standard one for HJ and DJ boys.

But what is also certain (and proved) is that this Klaas smaller knife, which was looking very similar in design to the official HJ-knife, was made in 1936!

it is also obvious that this knife was specially made, to fit in a smaller child's hand, compared to the standard HJ-knife...

So who would have been the potential buyers, that Robert Klaas made this small, HJ look alike knife for, in your opinion?

That is correct: the smaller boys of the DJ!

So, is it not normal that these are called "DJ-knifes"?

To me this makes perfectly sense!

Best regards,

Herman


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Herman i know what your saying but did the smaller Dj boys actually use these smaller knifes ? hard to prove imo, i would not call them a Dj knife as that is trying to legitimise them , i would like to see more proof to convince me but i get your point


Regards Mac 66

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Dave Online Content OP
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I'm with Mac on this. Those look like well made smaller utility knives and no doubt some found their way into the DJ, but to call them a "DJ Knife" is not warranted without more proof and pictures.

Dave

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