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PICKED UP THIS DAGGER FROM A VETS KID. IT IS A BEAUTY, HAD TO PAY THE PRICE BUT I COULD NOT LET IT GO. ANYWAY THERE IS A NAME ENGRAVED ON THE SCABBARD I CAN'T MAKE OUT ANY OF IT. I TOOK SOME PICTURES. ANY IDEAS ON HOW I CAN FIND OUT WHO THE OWNER OF THIS DAGGER WAS. THANKS PAUL

SAM_2612.jpg (19.78 KB, 690 downloads)
SAM_2613.jpg (20.83 KB, 687 downloads)
SAM_2616.jpg (19.67 KB, 689 downloads)
SAM_2617.jpg (25.34 KB, 689 downloads)
SAM_2626.jpg (28.71 KB, 689 downloads)
SAM_2627.jpg (27.86 KB, 687 downloads)
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Hmm..hard to read.
Any other pic of the name?

Gerd

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PIC.

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seems something like Brunt Gale...may be not german...

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Originally Posted By: PAULZAYA
PIC.


I would read Bruno Gal or Gah,not sure about the last name.

Regards,
Gerd

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bruno gesche-sure would like to know what his signature looks like. if that was his sig. it would be the find of my life-just dreaming. paul

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Nice score Paul!
Bob

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I lean more towards Bruno Yahn


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I was thinking Brian Gale . Could be the liberators name ? JMO

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Originally Posted By: Ronald Weinand
I lean more towards Bruno Yahn


or Bruno Jahn, which is an existing family name in Germany. Or Jahr, maybe (also a german family name).

Last edited by 777; 10/19/2013 08:51 PM.
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I think Bruno is right. Not sure about the last name.

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Maybe Galen?

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Bruno Gesche was a fairly prominent SS officer and part of Hitler's entourage. He was the equivalent of a LTC. If this is his dagger, it would add some significance.

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kreta and his dad believe it is bruno hahn. he had a friend that is good at this sort of think look at it and he agrees with bruno hahn. gesche was just me dreaming. thanks for looking it over grumpy.

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To me it looks sloppy and not much thought put into it , thats why I vote for veteran applied . I think a proud SS officer or long term member would either have his SS mann number or name neatly inscribed in some manner . This is not typical WWII German IMO . Of course we will never know for sure and this is JMO .

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You may be right. The second letter - "r" looks the way it's English handwritten lettering type. German handwritten "r" is different, also in Sütterlin script. Plus the "quality factor" - it makes me also vote for veteran applied, but still can't be sure.

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i bought this dagger from the live vet. his kid set up the deal and he claims that is the way it always was. his name is nothing like bruno hahn. thanks paul

Last edited by PAULZAYA; 10/20/2013 12:36 PM.
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Here are the German alphabets including Sutterlin.

Sutterlin.jpg (75.09 KB, 401 downloads)
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Hello All, as I study the Sutterlin script that Dave Hohaus posted, could the first name be Gunther (umlaut over the u). The first letter looks like a "G" and the last three letters look like t,e,r to me. JMO.....still studying the last name.
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The first letter of the last name certainly looks like a "H". Is it possible that the last two letters are "b" and "e"?
Possibly "Habe"? I must say that Hahn is more likely.
Ed

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Hi All:

Just back from Paris after The Max and just now catching up. There is a "Bruno Jahn" in the Master Index of SS Names in the National Archives. He has a Race & Settlement File. Be interesting to see if his signature on his Lebenslauf (if it is there) matches that on the dagger.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh

www.ssdaggers.com
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I just noticed that there are four with the name "Bruno Hahn" with three of these having Race & Settlement Files that could contain their signatures.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh

www.ssdaggers.com
www.ss-numbers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com


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Originally Posted By: PAULZAYA
i bought this dagger from the live vet. his kid set up the deal and he claims that is the way it always was. his name is nothing like bruno hahn. thanks paul


Hi Paul,
i sent a mail to one of my former teacher.He is one of the last "Old-school" guys i know and very fluent in this old script. He also confirmed Bruno Hahn and it is a mix of Sütterlin and Standart german font. As some of you know the sütterlin script were banned in 1941.
It's was not uncommon that many people wrote their name in a mix of both fonts.

Regards,
Gerd

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Originally Posted By: byf41@aol.com
To me it looks sloppy and not much thought put into it , thats why I vote for veteran applied . I think a proud SS officer or long term member would either have his SS mann number or name neatly inscribed in some manner . This is not typical WWII German IMO . Of course we will never know for sure and this is JMO .


I perfectly agree, etch is terrible and obviously done freehand on a whim with the nearest sharp object, not something to be expected from a SS man. They had professional engraving services back then, SS certainly had access to them, I find it impossible to believe that the original owner would have defaced his dagger with such a crude, child like scrawl.
Of course, anything is possible and the only scenario I can think of where the original owner did this is on the last day of the war, in a dark and smoking cellar maybe he scribed his name in with a broken piece of glass for posterity.
Not to say it still isn't a great find, but the etch is not a selling point.

Last edited by Skynyrd; 10/23/2013 09:51 PM.

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Originally Posted By: byf41@aol.com
To me it looks sloppy and not much thought put into it , thats why I vote for veteran applied . I think a proud SS officer or long term member would either have his SS mann number or name neatly inscribed in some manner . This is not typical WWII German IMO . Of course we will never know for sure and this is JMO .


Originally Posted By: Skynyrd
Originally Posted By: byf41@aol.com
To me it looks sloppy and not much thought put into it , thats why I vote for veteran applied . I think a proud SS officer or long term member would either have his SS mann number or name neatly inscribed in some manner . This is not typical WWII German IMO . Of course we will never know for sure and this is JMO .


I perfectly agree, etch is terrible and obviously done freehand on a whim with the nearest sharp object, not something to be expected from a SS man. They had professional engraving services back then, SS certainly had access to them, I find it impossible to believe that the original owner would have defaced his dagger with such a crude, child like scrawl.
Of course, anything is possible and the only scenario I can think of where the original owner did this is on the last day of the war, in a dark and smoking cellar maybe he scribed his name in with a broken piece of glass for posterity.
Not to say it still isn't a great find, but the etch is not a selling point.


Not all of us were perfect. laugh laugh
Here are two other examples.The Böker belongs to an Oberscharführer. Note the engraved name into the grip: FAUST.
The other ,an RZM 807/37 belongs to an Rottenführer,Diedrich Mester,Note the engraved name and unit 11/88 into the vertical hanger. Both daggers came out of the weeds and with a "file" from the national archive.Not uncommon to see these self engraved items!
Here the Böker:
http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=245311#Post245311

Here the RZM:

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=262954#Post262954

Best Regards,
Gerd

Böker_faust_logo_pass_gdc.jpg (109.74 KB, 370 downloads)
rus1A.JPG (70.01 KB, 369 downloads)
Gehänge_innen_gd.jpg (117.42 KB, 369 downloads)
mesterid01A.JPG (70.7 KB, 371 downloads)
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Skynrd,

With all due respect, and I certainly respect your opinion. I agree, the etch is not professionally done but we've all seen things that turn up that we don't like because they don't fit into the "textbook" category but turn out to be original and authentic. It's possible the SS guy was in a situation where he wanted to name his dagger so he could identify it if a "fellow comrade" decided to steal it. Some of these SS guys weren't exactly angels such as Dirlwängers Brigade; a bunch of criminals and thieves at best.

I also believe that if it were the end of the war that the last thing an SS Officer would do would be etch his name into his SS dagger. These guys were scrambling to blend into the civilian population or worst case Heere. They really did not want to be identified as the Allies searched for these guys.

Regards to All,
Ed

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Originally Posted By: ETF
Skynrd,

With all due respect, and I certainly respect your opinion. I agree, the etch is not professionally done but we've all seen things that turn up that we don't like because they don't fit into the "textbook" category but turn out to be original and authentic. It's possible the SS guy was in a situation where he wanted to name his dagger so he could identify it if a "fellow comrade" decided to steal it. Some of these SS guys weren't exactly angels such as Dirlwängers Brigade; a bunch of criminals and thieves at best.

I also believe that if it were the end of the war that the last thing an SS Officer would do would be etch his name into his SS dagger. These guys were scrambling to blend into the civilian population or worst case Heere. They really did not want to be identified as the Allies searched for these guys.

Regards to All,
Ed


Well, I said as much as to "anything is possible" as you, so it amounts to whos speculation is better than anyone elses, which is impossible to quantify.
We take what is known and proceed to probabilities.
What is known is that this is a very crude, ad-hoc etch done freehand in a very unprofessional manner.It is known that SS was an organization with extreme pride and professionalism, therefore it was not likely done by an SS man, except under unusual conditions which both of us alluded to.
While we are speculating, to your last which you rightly say it is not likely an SS man would want to ID himself in any way at the close of the war, maybe he was on his death bed and didn't care, maybe this etch was one of the last things he did on this earth, in those circumstances it would make sense, explain the crudeness, and in my mind the only possibility that the original owner did this.


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Doug,
Your points are well taken. It would be interesting if this guy's signature turns up in one of the three Race and Settlement files that Ross mentioned. It might at least identify what this man did in the SS. Worth pursuing further research in my opinion.

Regards,
Ed

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Yes, Bruno Hahn.
Definitely worth pursuing!!
This is indeed a crudely done signature, but therefore exciting to find it on paper in a file!
Please note that the signature is on the reverse of the scabbard.
I've seen many scribbles on the reverse of scabbards (ALSO SS dagger scabbards), usually initials...
So this guy wanted to be a little more elaborate....
By the way, great dagger!!!!

Jerry

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Hi All:

I was able to look into the SS records of "Bruno Hahn" in the National Archives. As I hoped all three of them in the Race & Settlement Files had a Lebenslauf that contained their signatures. Thought this might be a slam dunk, but alas it was not to be. Unfortunately, none of the signatures matched that on the dagger (see samples). I also looked at "Bruno Jahn" and there was no match there either.

Better luck next time!

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh

www.ssdaggers.com
www.ss-numbers.com
www.HistoricGraphics.com

Hahn01.JPG (45.53 KB, 201 downloads)
Hahn02.JPG (49.94 KB, 199 downloads)
Hahn03.JPG (30.21 KB, 200 downloads)

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Paul,

Beautiful chained SS, still one of those missing from my collection.

Well done!!!

Ross,

I've always been impressed in your historical research.

Rich


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I guess I'm alone on this. Definitely not done by an American vet, it's German. Not engraver quality, but IMO it's a nice signature done on a difficult surface. I read it as Bruno Gabi, i or e, or something very close to that. Because it's a signature it's difficult to read. Thanks.


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