UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories The Honor Ring Forum your opinions

Hi friends!

One of my friends wants to hear your opinions on this ring (all opinions are welcome)!
Thanks!

it is a good known pattern.

Is it silver? this is a very early pattern and they were usually marked in the band,,anything in there?
[there are a few pock marks,,but can't tell from photo 100% if from small damage or a casting]

My friend tells that it is a very light alloy - and yes pock marks, the pics i have are much bigger than that one, so i can see them clear. And the skull isn`t seperate soldered on.
My opinion was thumb down, but he wants to hear still other opinions.

Hi guys, i am finally in. It's easier to enter the white house rather than this forum lol
The ring is stamped on the back with Uniform - Degner's mark and a hallmark of "835". The supposedly patina looks like grey paint and the ring is very light as a feather. Made of aluminum not silver. It doesn't make sense to have a silver hallmark but constructed of aluminum. It's for sure a fake.

I have much better pictures but the limitation of the forum is making it impossible to use them. If i crop them so much as to fit the requirements of the forum then it will be impossible to zoom and see the details.

Welcome Chris!

Danke Freund

Why you think Uniform-Degners mark?
In my opinion this should be a stylized latin "Ln" in a half circle - the "Laurin"-mark. It has nothing to do with the Uniform Degner Company.

puh it really looks weird.

I see more things I don't like as I see things I like.

I would pass on that.

Best, Pzb14

Chris,

Welcome to the ring forum and thank you for showing your ring.

If you know this already please disregard and I apologize; A lot of us including myself at times call all marks Hallmarks, in my opinion due to the British Hallmarking system. Which is a big mistake because then we forget that every country has there own system and laws in place.

Technically speaking this isn't a Hallmark, but is referred to as a "silver content or fineness mark" that is when the item is actually made of precious metal. Remember, Germany has had no official office(s)to determine the precious metal content of a companies wares since Imperial Law mandated this, with an effective date of 1888. Therefore, after this period you should not see a Hallmark on German wares made of precious metals and that includes to present day.

Since we collect rings also remember, Jewelry may be marked but didn't have to be, nor did items that are less than .800 in silver fineness and .585 in Gold, because this was the minimum standard determined in accordance with Imperial law. There are many other reasons why German precious metal items aren't marked, but that can be discussed at another time if interested. Thanks.

Hi Mikee. I am confused by your post. So, I will simply state that I have numerous German silver items produced after 1888 and each one is properly marked with the moon slice, the crown, and 800. I have numerous reference books that say this is correct. These are the accepted markings for purity and German Silver, the moon and the crown with the finesse of 800 or more. A maker is free to add their marks.

So, please explain what I am not understanding about your post..

Welcome Chris!!,,glad you got on!!
Now that the info is out I'd say a big pass on that one too. The Ln mark looks good but they are easy to reproduce. Their big mistake was copying it so good they put the silver content stamp in the band ...

The info/photos, pock marks, incorrect band stamps all mean,,,,let someone else get that one!

-things changed with the coming of the 3rd reich. The marking system was off to say the least!

Many old time jewelry firms continued to use their old Imperial stamps [1/4 moon, crown, content number],,many didn't.
Also as mentioned, small items did not have to be marked at all, and again,,some did, some didn't....

Hey Jim,

Thanks for asking. I don't believe I've stated anything to contradict your understanding of how German items are marked. Sorry for the confusion..But in any case, you are one hundred percent correct. My only exception might be the maker mark portion of your statement, but only slightly. It has been mentioned a million times, so I don't mean to bore those that know this stuff already, let me just expand a little to what Jim has already stated correctly. This is for those that don't know and I'm talking strictly German goods and German Law okay.

Once again the basics of course are; For Gold, the symbol used is the Sun symbol, with the Imperial Crown arranged within the Sun symbol. For Silver, the symbol used is the Crescent Moon symbol, with the Imperial Crown arranged to the right of and next to the Crescent Moon symbol. To the right of and next to these symbols, you find an indication of fineness in parts per thousand. The minimum standards of fineness is .800 for items made of Silver and .585 for Gold. To the right of and next to these marks, the "registered" firms name or brand mark of the company, in accordance with German law of course.

Now to clarify some of what I've stated above and why. I laid out the marks in this order because that's how German law has it written out. Marks were applied in this order, which is in a left to right fashion and in a one, two, three order, the same way that we read and right. That's the impression the law gives on the order of marking, so I hope that makes since. Most did mark and still do mark in this order, but you certainly will not always find items marked in the order mentioned. I'm not sure, maybe G can explain further, but I think he hinted to this scenario and referred to this as "things changed with the coming of the 3rd Reich. The marking system was off to say the least!"

Why? Because the law doesn't state they had to mark in this order. Not only that, there's no official government/guild controlled entity to enforce it anymore after 1886. The only exception in the law being, is how the Imperial Crown "must" be arranged. Makes since to me, it's the symbol of the Empire! So "most always" when the item is marked you will find, the Imperial Crown arranged within the Sun symbol on gold items and the Imperial Crown arranged to the right of and next to the Crescent Moon symbol on silver marked items.

Jim, in response to you, you stated; "A maker is free to add their marks." I would respond by stating, he could, but if he wanted to first protect his pocket book, then his company name, goods and advertise the same, he wouldn't. It was more advantages and very cost effective to register. Not so if he wasn't registered in accordance with German law and was caught using someone else's registered mark, because then he could be held liable and then it certainly would cost him. So why take the chance if it was cheap to do so. That's why if you see an item that isn't marked, lets say with a company name in word, abbreviated form, letter form or with a symbol of some type, than it's more than likely from a source that hasn't been registered. I've stated in the past, the same concerning blank blades.

Once again, technically and historically speaking, not one of these German marks I've mentioned above is an "official mark", commonly known and referred to as a Hallmark, that can attest to the purity of precious metal content.

I wanted to respond to this statement because there is a good reason for this as well, but I've ran out of time, so will comment later.
G wrote; "Many old time jewelry firms continued to use their old Imperial stamps [1/4 moon, crown, content number],,many didn't. Also as mentioned, small items did not have to be marked at all, and again,,some did, some didn't....

Thanks.

G wrote; "Many old time jewelry firms continued to use their old Imperial stamps [1/4 moon, crown, content number],,many didn't. Also as mentioned, small items did not have to be marked at all, and again,,some did, some didn't....

In response; The criteria for marking didn't change and as long as firms registered in accordance with German law of course, they could do so. Reasons for them not to; allow their registration to expire or have it deleted from the register, for whatever personal reason they might have. For example, going out of business.

Second part; I'm as guilty as anyone with this one. The law doesn't state "small items". It specifically states "jewelry", but in accordance with another section that I wont get into right now. Big difference. If I can answer any more questions, I'd be glad to.

I keep forgetting to mention, the F* mark that we've all been wondering about for so long, is the mark of W. Frey, Pforzheim, no longer in business. Thanks

Hi guys, sorry for my late response. I thought that when a new post is made in the thread, i would be notified via email. I am new here so i don't know much on how things work.
The ring has been returned to the seller along with the "gorilla" skull fake ring which i also purchased from him. I will pay something extra and get a LW observer's abzeichen instead.
So a silver mark should not be called a hallmark?
Odal thanks for the correction on the maker. Before purchasing the ring i had posted it in waf for reviewing and a member there replied saying it was Uniform - Degner. That's why i thought it was that maker.

Degner was just a store/outlet to purchase uniforms and equipment.
They also sold 'mens' rings..
Some say Degner ring because they had advertisements in the different armed forces magazines,Luft,KM,Heer, etc.

don,

As I stated above. Some might disagree, but technically and historically speaking not all precious metal marks should be considered Hallmarks. Each precious metal item should be judged by it's place of origin and that countries laws which govern the marks placed upon it. I completely understand that the use of the word has evolved into a catch all, but in my opinion is a big mistake. If I haven't answered to your full understanding, please let me know and I'll try to explain in more detail. Thanks for the question.

Remainder of thread discussing hallmarks move to new post "Some Jewelry Terminology" at the request of Gaspare.

Great, thanks.