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Hello Everyone, I wanted to follow up on my post of April 3 regarding this SS chained type II dagger. I have posted photos and would appreciate all comments and input regarding this dagger. There are a couple of replacememnt connectors to the links which can be seen in some of the photos. I also have a few more photos if anyone would like to see additional photos. The SS number is on the side of the tang nut. The number is 1232. The Initials on the top of the tang nut are "WT".

Ed

Obverse.jpg (120.98 KB, 516 downloads)
Chain Obverse.jpg (90.5 KB, 517 downloads)
Handle Obverse.jpg (79.53 KB, 518 downloads)
Center Mount Obverse.jpg (66.46 KB, 513 downloads)
Motto.jpg (104.61 KB, 516 downloads)
Chain Reverse.jpg (86.05 KB, 513 downloads)
Blade Reverse.jpg (114.96 KB, 510 downloads)
WT Initials.jpg (93.49 KB, 507 downloads)
SS No a 1232.jpg (78.91 KB, 506 downloads)
SS No b 1232.jpg (94.45 KB, 506 downloads)
Last edited by ETF; 04/11/2013 09:17 PM.
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ED,
this dagger looks allright..... interesting to see the SS number on the tang nut, I cant say anything about the "WT" initials, but they look period and they match with the ss number,

here is the info again
The number 1232 goes to a Werner Thoms,
Born 07.05.1899
NSDAP number 91514
SS-Haptsturmfuhrer 20.04.1939

a very interesting dagger indeed that I wouldn´t hesitate to add to my collection.
talk to Ross K. about the SS number there might be interesting info regarding this SS officer

Cheers

Emil

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Wow, looks great to me, and I agree the numbering and initials look like period workmanship.

Very,very interesting!

Congrats, John


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Nice one and likely unique.

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I have looked up a lot of SS Dagger numbers with my SS Officer Research project and this is the first one I have seen numbered on the tang nut. Also, it is a bonus to have the initials engraved. Just a great one.
The only other unusual M36 addition that I have seen with an unusual add is one with two small metal pegs in the bottom of the lower crossguard to hold the knot away from the scabbard throat when the dagger was inserted into the scabbard (also a professional period addition on a direct veteran acquired piece).


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Ed:

Werner Thoms, SS No. 1232 has a SS Officer File and Race & Settlement File in the National Archives. I will check them on my next visit to see what there is. Contact me for more information.

Congrats!

Ross Kelbaugh

www.ssdaggers.com
www.ss-numbers.com


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OK... I'm sure that at least someone other than me is thinking the same thing... This tang nut looks original, but how hard would it be to modify any tang nut to match a number and initials found on the Deinstalterliste?

Please don't shoot the messenger...

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That thought did cross my mind as I'm sure some others as well.
But it's not that difficult to remove the cross guards and engrave or stamp them with a number and or initials from the Dienststalter List.

Ed

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I agree but than that train of thought applies to every stamped SS dagger or dagger period so why not mention it on every thread where someone, regardless of who it is, posts a numbered dagger? Look closely at the number on the tang. I might be crazy but I see age and wear and the stamping looks as if it has been there for an awful long time. I have seen dozens of numbered daggers and engraved daggers posted here on this very site in the last 10++ years that could have had fingers pointed at them well before this dagger and that showed no signs of wear or age to the lettering or numbers......just my two cents worth, cheers and regards to all. Ryan

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By the way, wouldn't it be a tad harder to stamp such a small number on a rounded surface versus larger numbers on a flat smooth surface such as a lower cross guard? I have seen numerous stampings on cross guards that display numerous strikes for one number. One would think that a faker or in experienced individual making as small and difficult a stamp as this would be prone to make at least one slip or mistake. I don't see any evidence of such. cheers

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Type III chain all the way.................

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If someone were inclined to number post war, why would you go out of your way to select an uncommon spot to use and draw more attention?? All the post war emblishments I have encountered were in the normal areas seen. This is highly unusual and, IMO, original.


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Easy to replace a tang nut if ruined by a faker.

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For the record, in case my comments were misunderstood. I like the dagger and the number, which appear completely period and original in my opinion cheers

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For the record, in case my comments were misunderstood... I also like the dagger and the number which appear completely period and original in my opinion. But I'm not going to be apologetic about my stating the obvious concerns for other examples if they appear.

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totally agreed....my point being that the originator of the thread was not seeking opinions on the originality of the piece nor the possibilities of embellishing. Posting the obvious is the same as posting after every item of headgear "how hard would it be to replace an eagle and skull?" or after every tunic "how difficult would it be to add cloth German crosses or replace the eagle etc?" I just don't get the purpose of the statement, especially if you think the number period applied......cheers

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On this forum ETF originally posted: “I'm going to make plans to go and see the dagger next week. I'll take photos and post them before I buy.” And on another forum a little later with his first post he stated: “My biggest concern is whether or not the engraving of the initials "WT" are period done.” .......... And later: “I do see what you mean about the number "2" appearing to be slightly different from each other.” So it would seem to me that he was paying attention to what was being said about multiple aspects of the dagger before purchasing, and had some concerns.

Looking down at the top of the pommel button in the image posted below it has the same general appearance as the top of the crossguard which would be a good sign. But the numbers on the side (that were not stamped but done by some other method - for a comparison a side by side period hand stamped # 9 is attached). With in addition to what looks like some battering on the button only, the side images that were posted show light being reflected from the pommel button “flats” and the round part above it that make it look like it has lost portions of its patina at some point in different locations. And I know that lighting could be a factor, but am assuming for now that a best effort was made to accurately present the dagger. With no other commentary than some new higher resolution/better lighting images may (or may not) show something else. Regards, Fred

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Gentlemen,

Thank you for all your responses, comments and input on this dagger.

This thread has been very interesting and most informative.

I hope that your replys and input keep coming. I did post this dagger on another forum as well and in Fred's defense did ask for input on the numbers and the initilas as to whether or not they were period done. Fred, your opinion is based on these numbers being "stamped". Another gentlemen on a different forum believes that they were I will quote here "the numbers on the tang nut when blown up, to me look hand done. not by number stamps, but by separate strikes. the bottoms of the two's are obviously not part of the upper part. and if you look very close at the 3 you can see many marks were used to create it. like they were carved in. just my opinion. i'd say period done by the owner."

The point here is that all numbers put onto SS daggers were not all "stamped" there were various methods that were used including hand scratched by the owner.

Just an FYI. When I took these photos as the sellers house I was making due with what light there was. It was a very overcast day so on a few shots I used some lamps with artificial lighting. Fred, I believe that is why you are seeing different shades or patinas between the sides of the tang nut and the top.

I believe that we can over analyze these things to death. But in reality, who really knows?

Based on the fact that I just like this dagger and that I have received many more positive comments both on this fabulous forum as well as another I have decided to buy this dagger. Mr. Thomas Whittmann who I also sent photos to believes that the numbers and the initials are period done. I happen to agree with him.

Again, Thank you all... I really appreciate the feedback and hope that it continues.

Regards to All,
Ed




Last edited by ETF; 04/15/2013 12:54 AM.
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#1 As we have pointed out to you many times Fred, this is where owning many daggers and handling them really makes a difference.
#2 the distortions in appearance are most likely caused by someone with a wrench having taken it apart at one point.
#3 The numbers were absolutely hand stamped, I don't know how that could not be more clear.
#4 Initially when I saw these pictures I did not like the personalization, I did not study it well enough, now I also think this is a period enhancement.
Best Wishes,
Bob

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Originally Posted By: ETF
Gentlemen,

Thank you for all your responses, comments and input on this dagger.

This thread has been very interesting and most informative.

I hope that your replys and input keep coming. I did post this dagger on another forum as well and in Fred's defense did ask for input on the numbers and the initilas as to whether or not they were period done. Fred, your opinion is based on these numbers being "stamped". Another gentlemen on a different forum believes that they were I will quote here "the numbers on the tang nut when blown up, to me look hand done. not by number stamps, but by separate strikes. the bottoms of the two's are obviously not part of the upper part. and if you look very close at the 3 you can see many marks were used to create it. like they were carved in. just my opinion. i'd say period done by the owner."

The point here is that all numbers put onto SS daggers were not all "stamped" there were various methods that were used including hand scratched by the owner.

Just an FYI. When I took these photos as the sellers house I was making due with what light there was. It was a very overcast day so on a few shots I used some lamps with artificial lighting. Fred, I believe that is why you are seeing different shades or patinas between the sides of the tang nut and the top.

I believe that we can over analyze these things to death. But in reality, who really knows?

Based on the fact that I just like this dagger and that I have received many more positive comments both on this fabulous forum as well as another I have decided to buy this dagger. Mr. Thomas Whittmann who I also sent photos to believes that the numbers and the initials are period done. I happen to agree with him.

Again, Thank you all... I really appreciate the feedback and hope that it continues.

Regards to All,
Ed


Ed, No offense, but what I actually said in my earlier post here was:

Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
............ But the numbers on the side (that were not stamped but done by some other method - for a comparison a side by side period hand stamped # 9 is attached). ...........

Which is why I used the modified image with the two individual side by side number "9" hand stamps made with the same number die. And if you are happy that's perfectly fine with me, as all I was presenting was what I was seeing from my perspective in the images that were posted. Regards, Fred

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Originally Posted By: RFI
#1 As we have pointed out to you many times Fred, this is where owning many daggers and handling them really makes a difference.
#2 the distortions in appearance are most likely caused by someone with a wrench having taken it apart at one point.
#3 The numbers were absolutely hand stamped, I don't know how that could not be more clear.
#4 Initially when I saw these pictures I did not like the personalization, I did not study it well enough, now I also think this is a period enhancement.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Bob, You have center stage, so please demonstrate what exactly it is that you are saying.

Regards, Fred

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Fred,
From our extensive past experiences, I think it is up to you to prove your points. Use legitimate examples that are easily understandable to all, not examples that only make sense to you and new guys.
Thanks!
Bob

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This M36 is proper in every way and I firmly believe in the number being applied during the 3rd Reich era.

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Originally Posted By: RFI
Fred,
From our extensive past experiences, I think it is up to you to prove your points. Use legitimate examples that are easily understandable to all, not examples that only make sense to you and new guys.
Thanks!
Bob


Bob, To keep it brief, besides some other parts of my background, I have a fair amount of experience in collecting TR and other period German pistols, rifles, and other types of arms that were serial numbered by hand or machine. And metal stamps are just stamps no matter what the object is that is being marked - and that includes daggers. And they can be double struck, tilted, one character hit more forcefully than another, flattened by being hit post production with something else (etc.). But under close magnification the bottoms of the characters should be more or less the same for repeated stampings, and the shape/form should be the same.

This kind of information is not rocket science. But I also know (like just about everything in life) that not everybody is at the same experience or educational level so when I'm asked I am happy to explain - because the characters are not 110% identical in appearance and sometimes a little explanation is needed for those with a different kind of background . With the example here being a German reissue of a type of bayonet that was used by the W/SS and others having an added serial number. With the “3” and “1” on the solid steel crossguard being more heavily struck than the sheet metal steel scabbard - which makes those markings deeper and slightly changes the size of the outline of the number. And that is because the working part of the metal stamp was designed with an inverted “V” or modified “U” shape. And the harder the hammer blow - the deeper/wider the marking. Regards, Fred

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Here is another SS dagger with inscription on the tang nut.

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Nicely done. Thanks for posting and sharing zoza.

Ed

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Dagger looks right not convinced about the number though, why stamp it in such an
awkward place. If period why be the odd man out when everyone else has their number
on or under the crossguard

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Interesting topic.

That number is not in the expected place, John, but to say that "else has their number
on or under the crossguard" is misleading. Most numbers are on the rear of the lower crossguard with the rear underside being second. But I have seen them on the front of the upper and lower crossguards, rear of the upper crossguard, scabbard throat and rear upper scabbard fitting. Some examples are shown in Tom Wittmann's SS book.

This is a first for the tang nut location, but that does not bother me. I suspect the fellow sent it off for the initials to be engraved and told the jeweler to add the number while he was doing it. Those initials are great period work IMO.

I'd buy it is I collected chained daggers

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Dave, I do see your argument up to a point, and am in agreement that there are a number of variations. But I've more than just casually watched jewelers and gun engravers at work - and it's fairly consistent from one piece to the next. And the layout for the initials on the top is a little off for an expert engraver, but not that bad, and he seems to have been able to engrave reasonably straight lines. But the straight lines on the "2" are not that well done IMO, and he had a real problem doing the curved parts. So I'm thinking that there was probably an interval, and more than one engraver who worked on the pommel? Also being open to other suggestions for why the pommel button seems to exhibit different levels of workmanship for the top and side. Best Regards, Fred

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Nothing to add to or detract from originality, just an opinion.
I have seen very few dagger tang nuts with monograms expertly applied, usually, but not always, following the period German pattern; where the initials are intertwined and with the first letter of the family name larger than the others. But, I hasten to add that I am not an expert on TR period calligraphy/engraving/etching practice.
The numbering on the perimiter of the nut is a first for me. I believe the SS order for applying service numbers specified crossguard and was a sensible location but, as an ex-serviceman I know very well that orders regarding uniform were sometimes observed in the breach. Veterans here will know what I mean. Anyway, I cannot see any advantage to a collector - if this was a post war addition, so my vote for what its worth is period, warts and all!

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Always interesting to be able to connect a face with the artifact.

Enjoy!

Ross Kelbaugh

www.ssdaggers.com
www.ss-numbers.com

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I like the dagger myself , but I guess thats not the issue here . I never purchase a dagger because of an engraving or number because in most cases its totally subjective determining WHEN the numbers/markings were placed there . If there happens to be a number/marking on the piece that in my mind looks appropriate then its a plus , but I wouldnt pay the extra bucks because of it . Of course there are exceptions . Having said that I think the markings on this dagger appear period done , so if the owner is happy , thats all that matters . JMO

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Gentleman, thanks for all the great input and comments on the dagger thus far. I hope the comments continue.

Ross, thank you for posting the photo. I appreciate it. Exciting stuff! I will be contacting you this week per our prior correspondence to discuss possible further research on Thoms.

I have looked at the numbers as well as the initials under both a magnifying glass and a jewlers loop. They both look like they have been there for a long time and appear Third Reich Period done. The numbers and the initials both look to have been done with an engraving tool of some sort. The numbers are not stamped but hand done with the tool.

I paid what I believe is a fair market price for a chained dagger in this condition and did not pay a premium because of the number or engraving. In any case, I am very happy with the dagger.

Regards to All.
Ed

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Hello All,

Currently Mr. Ross Kelbaugh is working on a complete research project regarding Hauptsturmführer Werner Thoms.
It will be about 3 weeks or so until I have the file in hand. Once I have the file I will post the key information on Hauptsturmführer Thoms on this thread so everyone can enjoy reading the information about him.

Thanks again for your participation in this thread.

Regards to All,
Ed

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Hello All,

As promised, I am attaching information on Hauptsturmführer Werner Thoms. Ross Kelbaugh has put together a fantastic research file on Werner Thoms. It's over an inch tick and contains many copies of original documents from Werner Thoms SS personal files. I am very pleased with the amount and quality of the research that he did on this SS officer. Thank you very much Ross.
I am attaching a few pages of the high lights of Thoms career that have been translated to English along with a few photos. If you have any questions or would like additional information on this SS Officer please e-mail me.

Regards to all,
Ed

Thoms p.1.jpg (76.74 KB, 189 downloads)
Thoms p.2.jpg (91.63 KB, 189 downloads)
thoms p.3.jpg (95.57 KB, 190 downloads)
Thoms p.4.jpg (73.34 KB, 188 downloads)
Thoms p.5.jpg (69.31 KB, 188 downloads)
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Great info its so nice to have a history like this with a dagger well done.


Regards Sean
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Thanks Sean. The credit goes to Ross Kelbaugh who really did a great job researching this SS officer. To your point, it is nice to have the history attached to the artifact.

Regards,
Ed

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You can see his wearing his small fuess GPB in the initial photo, cool.


Always buying Blood Orders.

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