UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Stamped knife, indentify/opinions please?

Hey guy, this knife if coming up for sale at a local auction and I've always been interested in obtaining a German knife or bayonet. Anyways, any help on this knife would be greatly appreciated. (Value, history, authentic etc.)

Here is what the auctioneer e-mailed to me after I inquired and pictures.


"SS and a E are stamped on the handle plus a few other letters stamped over each other. The blade is stamped with a D with three dots under it on one side and the other side has words that seem to be double stamped, the words or letters I could make out read Gott, Hamm & Solingen. Kane-M is on the snap of the sheath and sheath has oil inside. I'm not a expert in the field but the consigner said it was WWII. Hope this helps"








Thanks guys.

Welcome to the forums!! From what I can see in the images (which is not much). It looks to me like one of those imported reproduction trench knives which should probably have a Heco en Rep�blica de la India (or Pakistan) label on it somewhere. That said. If possible some better images especially of the supposed "SS" markings, would be nice to see where it fits into the overall picture of faked "SS" items. FP

Thank you for the welcome and info Fred. I appreciate it. I did a little research about what he said about Gott, Hamm, and Solingen being stamped and discovered it probably says: "Gottlieb Hammesfahr Soligen" Which from what I've read so far is a legit stamp. Would a repro have that on it?

Here is a picture of the D with 3 dots he speaks of and a zoomed in photo of the SS. That's all the pic I have and the auction is tomorrow so I doubt he would send more in time. Cheers!

That's not a WW II era marking, and that is not what a typical "SS" marking looks like.

In the image below: An Imperial era Crown/Letter government acceptance stamp on the pommel of a Prussian IOD Model of 1889. To its right on top: The SS "Kulturzeichen" on the back of the chain on a M 1936 SS dagger. With below it, the SS Sigrunen on the chain link front of another dagger.

If he's advertising it as a legitimate period "SS" item in a best case scenario. He IMO may have simply confused Imperial era markings with those of the Third Reich. And with a worst case scenario I'm sure that you can use your imagination. Regards, FP

Found a site with an identical knife:

http://www.snyderstreasures.co...ges/germanknives.htm

Listed as GBK-13 I see no difference, what strikes you on the one I posted as reproduction?

Trying to learn as much as I can so I don't get screwed hahah, thanks so much.

(My mistake, I'm reposting the comments after I hit the wrong button. FP)

FAKE!! leave well alone
Sean

Alright, thanks for all the great information. I think I'll pass one that one.

The other knives I see posted in this section are absolutely gorgeous! Maybe I'll save up and invest in one of them.



Thanks again Fred, and Sean for your feedback

Short version:

quote:

FAKE!! leave well alone
Sean

That works for me.

Long version:

quote:

Found a site with an identical knife: Listed as GBK-13 I see no difference, what strikes you on the one I posted as reproduction?

For starters, to each his own, but I don't use "Snyder's Treasures" myself as a place to go for unquestionably reliable information.

As for the knife you posted, I've seen buckets of these for years at shows that look virtually identical. With from the image posted, not particularly caring for the uneven depth of the stamping of the trademark. Which is not the only clue, having seen some of them that are modified from show to show. Getting altered a little here, and a little there. With my personal preference being to not to provide a guide to fakers to make "product improvements" - as has been done with some other things.
Regards to you both, FP

I would not bet much on the authenticity of that fighting knife. The pictures are terrible and the description does not sound like anything I have heard of.

Dave

SS stamps are easily added to just about anything to enhance the price. I wouldn't think this is an authentic knife. Go for authentic items. not "maybe" ones.

Alrighty, thanks a lot everyone.

Are all the items in this forums For Sale section legit? I'm tired of worrying about the authenticity of stuff I see at auction.

Cheers
Myles.

Hi this ss dagger you have pictured here is posted in this forum buy bourmakin witch is about 30 posts down on list from this one "Post title was ss dagger good or bad" There was alot of detailed pictures. Hope that helps

quote:

Originally posted by MylesL:
Alright, thanks for all the great information. I think I'll pass one that one.

The other knives I see posted in this section are absolutely gorgeous! Maybe I'll save up and invest in one of them.



Thanks again Fred, and Sean for your feedback

Almost all for sale here is authentic. On rare occasions, a repro or parts piece will appear. However, that's usually because the seller is not familiar with that particular category. Usually, problem items are called out soon after posting. There are occasions where honest opinions vary. In any case, you get a generous return period for items sold here.

Much obliged Grumpy.

I know its a little off topic but what is up with Snyders Treasures. That site has some super dodgey stuff on it. Has anyone seen the Heydrich dagger on there? I mean that can't be authentic can it?

I must say it's nicely executed, but, even if I had the money, I would pass on it.

The website is down now, but when I looked at it last, it still had an NSKK "Presentation" dagger from the 1950's. If the "Heydrich" dagger looks anything like that one, it's going to be a lot harder to find a buyer than it was back then. FP

quote:

"I know its a little off topic but what is up with Snyders Treasures. That site has some super dodgey stuff on it. Has anyone seen the Heydrich dagger on there? I mean that can't be authentic can it?"

Reinhard Heydrich the man, does have a significant historical prominence in the overall history of the SS. If we are talking about the same dagger, the seller labels it the �REINHARD HEYDRICH SA MARINE HIGH LEADER HONOR DAGGER�. While the seller in his description made an effort to link the name/rank on the locket to Heydrich and the SS. I will leave it up to anyone reading it from the link posted below to decide how successful he was in making the connection.

With the dagger itself at one time in the "Heilman" collection, some of the old timers no doubt have much better information on the collection than I do. With my recollection of what has been said about it, being that at least a portion of it was a repository for a number of altered fake/fantasy daggers. With a number of them dating back to the 1950�s.

While there were no real surprises for me with the preceding as postwar added (conventional) engraving seemed to be a common feature with daggers in that collection. One thing did catch my attention. I would like to have seen closer images without all of the glare from the lighting. But even with the glare, a quick look at the blade images shows what looks like a standard etched motto on one side. As compared to what looks to me in the images like a machine engraved 'presentation' side. Which has been treated to darken and cover up the later (55 - 60 year old) enhancement. FP

Heydrich High Leader Honor Dagger

quote:

Originally posted by MylesL:
... I did a little research about what he said about Gott, Hamm, and Solingen being stamped and discovered it probably says: "Gottlieb Hammesfahr Soligen" Which from what I've read so far is a legit stamp. Would a repro have that on it?

a lot of them ...

Your knife is a fake !

Yes, when I view the SA dagger, thoughts of "Atwood" and "Belgian gun engravers" come to mind.

here�s a legit one:

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

I�m interested in trench-knive�s and fighting-knive�s quite a while but I�ve never heard �bout "SS-stamped" knive�s ...

WWI trench-knive�s where in use in German units by unknown number�s,(obviously private purchased !), during WWII, but they weren�t "official"-stamped ! ...

Nice knife Reibert.

Well I hope no one got screwed at the auction. [ I didn't bother attending as the knife was the only item I was interested in] But guaranteed someone paid way too much for it. Oh well, what can you do :-]

Hi Fred,

Yes that is the dagger that I mentioned. What are your thoughts on the engraving done on the scabbard and in particular that done on the picture posted below?

http://www.snyderstreasures.co...e%20Max/DSCN1016.JPG

Hi Everyone, here is a link to a repro knife,nats

http://www.egun.de/market/item...0ba23a89adc8de4d1c1d

quote:

Hi Fred, Yes that is the dagger that I mentioned. What are your thoughts on the engraving done on the scabbard and in particular that done on the picture posted below? Link: "Heydrich" scabbard locket

I�m heading out for the day so I only had time for a quick look. That said, at least portions of the locket may also have been rotary (machine) engraved. With more time needed to really look at the rest and maybe a few more images.

With my impression of the overall look of the dagger originally being something of a �beater� (ie: not very good condition). That was then enhanced to make it more marketable. Which seems to have been a more common practice in times past with some marginal items.
Regards, Fred

Thanks Fred,

Your insight is always appreciated!

Thank you for the compliment. Rather than spend a lot of time and try and look at the exterior in close detail. Here is the signature portion ("Lutze") of the postwar added �presentation�. It has something in common with �H�hnlein� fake signatures in that it is mechanically engraved. There are multiple places where the mechanical engraving is apparent, but here is the first one that caught my attention.

The original full length image for that portion of the blade. And a link to an earlier discussion, where mechanical engraving on fake/altered items was discussed. Fred

NSKK High Leader Debate Is Over - Page 8

Hi Fred,

Thanks for the link, I think I have re-read that High Leader debate thread about 4-5 times now! That thread is good food for thought.

Now that you have enchanced the pictures it is clear what you can see. The machine cutter has indeed overlapped and cut a new path as the "L" goes down.

Can't argue with that...

So the presentation on the blade is definitly a post-war addition then?

quote:

So the presentation on the blade is definitely a post-war addition then?

The short answer is yes, the dagger has been postwar modified - having multiple �issues�. I think that if additional discussion is desired by anyone it might be better served in the SA & NSKK Dagger Forum as a new topic. That�s because other than that supposed connection to Reinhard Heydrich in the sellers description, there is not much else to draw from. Regards, Fred

quote:

Thanks for the link, I think I have re-read that High Leader debate thread about 4-5 times now! That thread is good food for thought.

I'm glad that you found it beneficial. If nothing else I would hope that the thread would be an encouragement for collectors to do some independent thinking. Just because somebody is claiming something he is selling (or otherwise promoting) to be a completely original period item does not necessarily make it so. Likewise if an item is in a book it may or may not be OK. Because the item's inclusion could also be the result of the author being taken in, or possibly because he relied on somebody else's expertise which was lacking, and in some cases non-existent. Regards, Fred