UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum Odd HJ !!

This dagger has an odd blade. it has a fuller and nasty point.

It does not fit well in the scabbard. But the grip and swaz all look okay and I can even make out the head of a WKC knight.

The leather has some heavy stippling as well.

It looks to be very well made.

Any help would be appreciated. Is it a pile of crud?

regards

FRank

last batch. It is also a little wobbly and the swaz does move.

IMO this is rare original knife,made by WKC.
I have seen these before.

Stingray

I think Ron Weinand owns one

That is good to know.

I thought it had some good features and looked to be period.

Looked on the net but could not find much info.

It is good. I have owned two in 50 plus years of collecting. Bob Grant turned one up in a motel buy years ago, marked the same way and the ones I have are plain blade and one marked with the WCK Knight's Head partially hidden like yours.

From these pics: Due to the leather replacement material (at least looks like) it should be a late knife.
Without any RZM mark?
With a half to be seen WKC mark? Looks to me like a shortened other purpose blade.
These might come from US veterans but I have never seen any nor hear about one on the TRUE source of these edged weapons, Germany.
For me a typical postwar "field day" kind knife.
Just my thoughts, regards,

Since posting these images some more information been found.

There is a picture of one of these at the back of the Johnson's book. It shows the same heavy stippling to the leather, is by WKC and has the same exact blade configuration.

Given that there is a ricasso evident on the blade I do not think this has been cut down. The maker mark positioning would mean that the ricasso was very long if it was the case and the fuller would have extended to the tip.

This is one of a pair that has surfaced in the UK, they had been in a collection and were purchased as a pair.

I will get some pictures of them both. In hand they feel good and at first it was thought they were simply HJ knives.

All the ones I have heard of in recent days were by WKC.

Still its open to discussion but I am hoping to buy one for my collection but agreeing a value is proving to be difficult.

Very interesting piece, Frank, thank you for posting it here!

These WKC "bowie" blade HJ's are still a mistery to me.

I have seen one at the SOS 2006 show, also the one in Johnson's book, but not any here at the German, Belgian and French shows, which are -in my opinion- the mean sources for fresh, "never been in a collection" and untouched items.

It is known that WKC has made "bowie" shaped blades at a very early stage (1920-early 1930), see for example the fighting knife pictures in attachement.

So it could be possible that the company has mounted some of these in their late HJ's. But as already indicated, the missing RZM stamp is at least very unusual.

Anyway, in my opinion, the only period made bowie blades are WKC's. All the others are modified blades or postwar made (most are by Klaas).

Best regards,

Herman

Another one, unmarked but surely also by WKC: it has the identical features.

Best regards,

Herman

As wotan mentioned, the leather looks like stamped calfskin which I would think is later myself - but maybe they were mated later on? I also saw: �It is also a little wobbly and the swaz does move.� I got the swaz part, but does that also mean that the blade wobbles ie: loose? And from the images I�m not sure what the hilt is made from - is it magnetic? FP

I am wondering if they were mated later as well. They have a lot of movement within the scabbard and yes the one pictured has a blade that moves slightly in the grip. I managed to get some pictures of the pair just a while back.

Both me and the owner are intrigued. The WKC mark seems to indicate earlier construction of the blade. I feel they were put together in the factory but for what purpose?

I will check tomorrow if the grips are magnetic.

see attached images of them both. I can get more if needed.

I have just seen that both blades may not be the same width at the X guard end. I will also try and measure them tomorrow.

More info.

Looking at the pictures from Herman V the scabbard configuration is not HJ which would be expected.

I have tested the grips and they are both non magnetic.

Measuring the blade width at the X Guard and I got 21.4 mil and 21.39 mil.

I also measured the length of the scabbard and it is slightly longer than a HJ but that is because the end of the scabbard is very pointed. see the picture below.

The picture in the Johnson book shows the exact same scabbard trait.

The paint finish is period and not a repaint.

They are very well made and I think they were factory produced. Could they have been prototypes that were made and then not taken any further than the factory management? Left in the factory until picked up by a group of US soldiers.

I doubt if they were ever issued and so the chances of them turning up in Europe would be rare.

Apart from these two there is one other I have heard of in the UK and it is in much better condition and in a paper bag {I have not seen it!!}

The others seem to be in the USA.

So doing a quick count we have 5 so far. The picture in the book must have come from a source prior to the publication date of 1982 and it would be great if we could find out where that image came from?

The hobby moves on and that is what makes it interesting. Text books are written and re-written.

I will try and find out where these two came from. I know it was one source and will try and get more info.

I have taken a close up of the grip just to impress the quality of construction.

Interesting additions of information, Frank!

I have found the (rarely seen!) pointy HJ scabbard on late knifes by a few makers, see pictures hereunder:

The good news for you is that... WKC is one of them: see the pictures of a 1940 WKC HJ.

So the scabbard is a correct match for your knife: it is no prototype, but a late version of HJ scabbard.

Best regards,

Herman