UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum SS Officer Degen Question

Hello to the forum,

I have just received an early version of the SS Officer's Degen, with all nickel hilt components and 'stepped' fitting. The blade is 34 " long and is unmarked as to maker.

The question I have concerns the scabbard. The scabbard fits perfectly with respect to length, condition and perfect 'snugness' as you fully insert the blade. The problem is that the throat piece does not have the culture mark, and also the bottom fitting is secured by screws, rather than being a press fit.

Can this possibly be the correct scabbard? All my other SS Officer Degens have pressed lower fittings and culture marks on both the hilts and the scabbard throats.

Thanks,

Harvey

Hi Harvey,

There will undoubtedly be some collectors/dealers who will say that a scabbard with screws is acceptable on an ss officer's degen (I know there are claims of such out of the woodwork purchases) and perhaps others that will say that the absence of the culture mark is not unknown but I personally would have zero interest in an officer's degen with a scabbard exhibiting these anomalies. It could well be a totally legitimate item but such a piece would be hard to re-sell in my opinion.

Jonathan

I agree with Jonathon, just not as strongly. My early degen does have the pressed fitting and most will want it as such...

I own what I would call a transitional-early SS officer degen. The hilt, including the pommel and button are nickel-silver, but the ferrule is plated. It is configured like most earlier degens, eith the step fitting that screws on, with a cap covering the tang. There is no sign of tampering. The scabbard has plated fittings and the lower one is held on by screws. The upper has the culture stamp. I have no problem with the authenticity of this sword. It is in "near mint" condition, to include the scabbard. There are still traces of the original clear lacquer on the hilt. My feeling is my degen was produced during the latter days of the earlier type, probably shortly prior to the "Dachau" types coming forward. It has no maker mark, but does have "dots" stamped into the ricasso, one alone and three in a row, presumably representing 13 or 31. I can understand why some would be uneasy with such a sword, but I am confident it is factory original. There came a time when these swords were phased out and parts were depleted, in favor of the "Muller" examples. I would want to see the example in question, but, on the face of it, I think there is a good chance it is completely original. There are always exceptions to the rules, as seen in original daggers with mixed early and late parts, or "transitionals."

Just checked Wittmann's site. He has two early SS officer degens listed. Both have lower fittings held with screws, one has dome-head screws, the other has headless screws. Both degens have "culture" markings on their upper fittings.

I've been asked to comment on this thread and this will be my only post on it, lest we have a frog flopping around on the floor,wigging out.

The scabbard for a Police Officer's VS an SS Officer's degen, is not defined by the presence nor absence of 2 little screws in the bottom fitting of the shell....period. There is plenty providence of SS Officer swords with scabbards that have the screw held bottom scabbard fitting, and likewise Police examples that the fitting has been sweated in place.

What is the most important factor when examining any sword, is that the scabbard is the proper length for the degen's blade. For me personally, that has been one inch or less, of where the end of the blade would lie in relation to the end of the scabbard, when the degen is slid in the shell. I calculate this measurement by placing the sword blade on top of the scabbard and visually observing it.

As far as the SS proofs on the top fitting of the scabbard and those on the bottom of the D guard, we find some firms that did both components, some that did one or the other, and some that did neither. Somewhere around here I have that list, but I'll be damned if I can find it at the moment.

Lastly, Harv should had posted at least one photo of the degen that he was referring to when he posed the questions that started this thread. The reason that I say that is because it is fairly obvious that the degen and the scabbard that he was wondering about, have been married together since Himmler left the chicken farm.

JR

JR is precisely on target. I have seen photos of the degen and I have no doubt it is correct and the degen and scabbard are a perfect match.

Mmmm...each to his own. Harvey just bear in mind the fact it won't be as easy to resell as the more accepted type, if you are happy with it then I guess that's what matters

I have sold many with many different configurations and it does not seem to be an issue. I think all of the people who have done this forever and seen many come out of the woodwork will agree.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Bob,
Well I guess I haven't 'done this forever' but I have collected for 26 years and presently have 11 officers degens (yes I like them) which I think counts for something. No-one is going to convince me that a degen with a scabbard lacking the culture stamp and with a lower fitting attached with screws is going to bring the same money as an example with pressed lower fitting and complete with the culture stamp......
Jonathan

Hi Jonathan!
I think I did sell you one of them, right? And I do remember some very imressive pictures you sent me:)!
Anyway, I also suspect that most if not all of your pieces came from dealers which means you had the ability to be much more selective. Whereas here it used to be a smorgasbord of "stuff" that was available from the veteran sources.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Bob,
Yes I got a nice later example off you and still have it too. With the exception of one other piece mine have all come from collectors or veteran's families
Regards
Jonathan

I tend to side with JR and Bob on this one. Yes most collectors would prefer to have an early solid nickel slip fitting to the lower but they were not all made this way. Many original variations do exist that are completely original.

Not taking sides here, but from a collector's point of view I agree with Jonathan.

There are "variants" of almost all German edged weapons. Some are more attractive and desirable than others, to be sure. For example, more collectors would likely prefer an M36 dagger with solid nickel-silver fittings than one with plated fittings, on the "Type II" examples, anyway. That does not make the ones with plated fittings undesirable or bogus. As always, condition plays an important part in any collectible. These degens do come in a variety of forms. Earlier ones tend to be more desirable, but early to mid- examples, to me, no more than reflect an evolution of the manufacturing process. When one looks at the advent of the police degen and how it is assembled, similarities, especially in the scabbards,with SS degens begin to be seen. Theoretically, SS and police degens might well have become identical in assembly, save the grip insignia, had it not been for the Dachau forge coming on the scene and instituting Muller's design. I try to take each example on its own, hopefully, with an open mind. It's up to the collector to limit or expand what interests him and how and on what he spends his money. Not too long ago, there was an effort to convince collectors that "Himmler" daggers with the "smooth tail" mark were bogus. Eventually, that was shot down. I don't think it's fair or accurate to say only the earlier degens with all nickel-silver fittings, etc., are "legitimate" because that simply is not the case. Such a position throws confusion into the collector community and tends to throw a negative light on degens that do not conform to that idea. Again, there are "legitimate" variants. If you choose not to add any to your collection, that's fine. It's also fine to express your preference. But, to throw doubt on those examples which do not appeal to you personally is not fine.

Agreed, variations and exceptions to "the rule" exist in collections. Like Jonathan,I was just expressing my own preference when selecting SS degens for my personal collection, not making a value judgement on the extensive experience and preferences of others.
Regarding the later SS officer degens, all plated fittings and with functional pommel - identical to the Police degen introduced in 1939, I personally prefer to have them by P D Krebs with both parts SS stamped and the pressed on lower scabbard chape. The degens produced at the Dachau sword smithy by Paul Muller are a seperate and desireable category, imho.

In regard to the mid period swords I agree with Barry except, I think I have seen variation in the scabbard chape.
Bob

It's a fascinating hobby. Different strokes for different folks.

I think what I take from this discussion is there is a wide range of variation in these. I think all sides are honorable intelligent people. However, from many people who have owned many of these there is not "one solid rule", there is preference by some people which is fine. But not one "solid rule" we all agree on as there are in other cases.
Best Wishes,
Bob

My thanks to everyone who commented; I have learned a lot.

Normally distrustful of unusual variations, in this particular case I'm inclined to bend a bit for the following reasons:

1.The entire degen; sword, scabbard, knot, pommel, etc... is 100% uncleaned, unmodified, never been apart or even the pommel unscrewed.

2.The mechanical fit of the blade to the scabbard is the best I have encountered: absolutely smooth and gradually tightening until the scabbard throat hits the blade buffer. Blade tip ends 1/4 inch from bottom of lower fitting.

3. Perfectly matching 'crud' on blade buffer and throat face.

4. Perfectly matching "nicotine" staining throughout (except the blade which is near perfect, being protected by the scabbard).

5. The use of very early type of 'flattened' screws, which generally predate the introduction of Police Officer degens.

6. The former owner's name, SS number and monogram are on the degen, and he was awarded this degen in early 1939; making the use of "later" type fittings believable.

7. Upon Cliff's suggestion, using strong lighting and magnification, I closely examined the face of the throat fitting. I discovered what appears to be a portion of a very faintly stamped culture mark. The mark is under some crud that adhered to the face from the blade buffer, but it appears that an attempt was made to stamp the mark.

I'll buy this sword and be happy with it. Thanks again for all the comments.

Harvey

Harvey, I hope you will be able to post pictures here when you have ownership.