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#272801 10/24/2012 03:49 AM
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Hi guys
I got this dagger today and i think is ok.
But i need to know your opinions.

Thanks

mini-rohm 029.JPG (49.35 KB, 672 downloads)
mini-rohm 004.JPG (64.67 KB, 668 downloads)
mini-rohm 005.JPG (76.25 KB, 673 downloads)
mini-rohm 006.JPG (102.09 KB, 670 downloads)
mini-rohm 007.JPG (93.15 KB, 669 downloads)
mini-rohm 008.JPG (80.96 KB, 667 downloads)
mini-rohm 009.JPG (103.58 KB, 666 downloads)
mini-rohm 010.JPG (57.56 KB, 667 downloads)
mini-rohm 015.JPG (68.61 KB, 664 downloads)
mini-rohm 016.JPG (70.55 KB, 665 downloads)
stingray #272802 10/24/2012 03:50 AM
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more

mini-rohm 018.JPG (82.9 KB, 660 downloads)
mini-rohm 020.JPG (55.74 KB, 661 downloads)
mini-rohm 021.JPG (46.96 KB, 661 downloads)
mini-rohm 022.JPG (45.73 KB, 659 downloads)
mini-rohm 023.JPG (57.61 KB, 658 downloads)
mini-rohm 024.JPG (71.98 KB, 657 downloads)
mini-rohm 025.JPG (63.74 KB, 658 downloads)
mini-rohm 027.JPG (49.88 KB, 654 downloads)
mini-rohm 028.JPG (55.95 KB, 658 downloads)
mini-rohm 030.JPG (65.88 KB, 653 downloads)
stingray #272806 10/24/2012 09:38 AM
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Inscription and trade mark don't have same density of background the inscription is darker may be pics but looks to me from pics provided they weren't done at the same time

A J #272827 10/24/2012 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted By: A J
Inscription and trade mark don't have same density of background the inscription is darker may be pics but looks to me from pics provided they weren't done at the same time


Photographing many political daggers over the years, I noticed how just a slight angle of the blade to the camera lens will change the darkness of the burnishing.
If you look on this blade note the 'E' on E-pack and note how much darker it is, or seems to be, compared to the other letters as they curve further away from a 90 degree angle.

The staining inside the lettering etching seems to be consistent with the other stains on the blade. The Rohm dedication look to exhibit the same unique letter and style characteristics on e-pack dedicated SA/NSKK daggers.

The e-pack logo is the same as on 'textbook' verified Rohm examples.
For me it looks like a original dedication.

-Serge-

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Hi Stingray,

I agree with Serge on this Rohm,

Genuine by the pix provided,


Regards Mac 66.

Mac 66 #272842 10/24/2012 08:38 PM
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I like this one as an original Pack Rohm as well.

JR #272847 10/24/2012 10:55 PM
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Thank you gentlemen
I made few more pictures on better light.

Stingray

mini-rohm x 014.JPG (66.43 KB, 588 downloads)
mini-rohm x 015.JPG (73.7 KB, 582 downloads)
mini-rohm x 017.JPG (72.28 KB, 583 downloads)
mini-rohm x 018.JPG (59.11 KB, 581 downloads)
mini-rohm x 019.JPG (89.98 KB, 576 downloads)
mini-rohm x 011.JPG (60.42 KB, 579 downloads)
mini-rohm x 012.JPG (48.62 KB, 577 downloads)
mini-rohm x 013.JPG (45.39 KB, 575 downloads)
stingray #272850 10/25/2012 12:13 AM
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Better pics allay my previous fears looks good now
tony

stingray #273344 11/03/2012 06:53 PM
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Today I received a email from a collector friend of mine asking me to take another look at this dedication as he did not like it.
Knowing that he is well versed in these I come here to re-examine this SA Rohm e-pack dagger.

I now do not like what I see. It's all in the minute details, but that's where the devil hides. I will not disclose here what I have found but if stingray wants to know what I had missed before, send me a email.

I have to retract my previous 'good' call on this one. I now believe this dagger to be a original regular e-pack dagger but with a false and not period dedication applied post-war.
Thanks to good friends whom may if they like post here and take the credit as they are deserving.

-serge-

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Thank you my friend for the good words and we are all here to help one another in this hobby. smile

I sincerely hope that Ivan will find a happy ending to this.

patrice #273374 11/04/2012 09:20 AM
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Hard call on this one due to greying and surface spotting. Woule have to have it in hand to be sure, but it is an ePack maker.


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i too would pass on this .if he like he may contact me on it.I will only answer the oringal post owner.I am not an expert but i know what i like.I have a fake rohm i put on the table and have fooled many people .never would sell it i have to much fun with it.after i tell them whats wrong it is fun to haer experts say oh yeah i knew that was just testing you.Really why you just put 4500 on table.

reichstall #273593 11/08/2012 04:04 PM
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I would like too see an upclose detailed picture of the trademark.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
patrice #273652 11/09/2012 06:47 PM
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I've looked at this inscription and compared it to original pictures of Pack examples. Though it is not etched in stone, I would say this is not an original example. Just my personal opinion.

Gailen David

Gailen David #273658 11/09/2012 11:42 PM
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As far as I am concerned the master has spoken !!!!


Urban B Martinez Jr
the russian #273659 11/09/2012 11:52 PM
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Thanks guys
Thanks to Sandy,today i got the back the internet connection.
I will make more pictures tomorrow,since I still believe.

Stingray

patrice #273764 11/12/2012 07:16 PM
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Looks fine to me from what I see in the new images that were supplied. It's tough, if the camera angle is not exact I can get opinion.

Gailen

Last edited by Gailen David; 11/12/2012 07:19 PM.
Gailen David #273765 11/12/2012 07:34 PM
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Sorry to disagree but in my opinion the blade is much too different from any known original.
Here are the two sets of pictures that were also sent to me and you can clearly see the difference between both blades.
Picture 1 ( real ). picture 2 ( repro ).

1.JPG (38.01 KB, 359 downloads)
mini-ROHM x 033.JPG (42.98 KB, 363 downloads)
patrice #273766 11/12/2012 07:35 PM
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picture 1 ( real ), picture 2 ( repro )

2.JPG (33.22 KB, 362 downloads)
mini-ROHM x 038.JPG (37.48 KB, 363 downloads)
patrice #273767 11/12/2012 07:36 PM
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picture 1 ( real ), picture 2 ( repro ).

mini-ROHM XX 004.JPG (39.38 KB, 358 downloads)
mini-ROHM x 039.JPG (41.42 KB, 356 downloads)
patrice #273783 11/13/2012 01:57 AM
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Pat: That's pretty good. And to think just a few years ago you couldn't tell if a bayonet was repointed. But I know your a quick learner and have become very knowledgable in all areas of dagger inscriptions templates.

It should also be noted that I'm not writing a letter of authenticity on this piece without a hands on examination (which I don't do anymore anyway). What I wrote is just an opinion based images that were supplied to me and that is all. Period.

Gailen

Gailen David #273832 11/14/2012 02:02 AM
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Thank you guys
Anybody else have opinion ?


Stingray

patrice #273857 11/14/2012 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted By: Pat
picture 1 ( real ), picture 2 ( repro ).
Pat Both of your examples look fake too me.Genuine examples are very rare and 90% of the ones I see are fake.Believe it or not near perfect Roehm daggers have and are being made to this day.

Last edited by zorro; 11/14/2012 08:04 AM.

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zorro #273867 11/14/2012 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: zorro
Genuine examples are very rare and 90% of the ones I see are fake.Believe it or not near perfect Roehm daggers have and are being made to this day.


Absolute non sense, could we please see one of yours 100% original E.Pack full Rohm please ?

I've clearly shown the reasons why I thought it was fake, it would also be very important for you to tell us why you think the other Rohm is also fake. Negative comments have to be proven or else it just becomes futile.

Thank you

patrice #273881 11/14/2012 06:57 PM
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Pat I have always respected your opinion.I call them as I see them.The size of the magnification throws the look of the inscription off.I was not just talking about full Roehms I meant partials also. They have to be in hand to tell and sometimes that is not good enough.The reason I think full Roehm's are rare is that How many SS men would disobey a direct order and risk the death of himself and his family,I would say a few.Heres my partial Roehm .Alot of people do not like EP&S but they are one of favorites.Things I like ,Trademark close to cross guard,grinding device hit crossguard,never cleaned,this is why I do not clean daggers.Peace O great wizard.


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zorro #273883 11/14/2012 07:09 PM
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For the above post. P.S The letters on your Roehm daggers appear to round and not linear or straight in areas.I also preferb the smal"&" These are just my opinon and specific's since you asked.I have not been on this great forum in awhile I am rusty.

IMG_3246_2 (Small).JPG (31.89 KB, 337 downloads)
IMG_3247 (Small).JPG (36.07 KB, 338 downloads)
IMG_3248 (Small).JPG (32.95 KB, 339 downloads)
IMG_3249 (Small).JPG (29.75 KB, 335 downloads)
IMG_3250 (Small).JPG (27.93 KB, 328 downloads)
IMG_3251 (Small).JPG (33.57 KB, 327 downloads)
IMG_3252 (Small).JPG (39.34 KB, 328 downloads)
Last edited by zorro; 11/14/2012 07:44 PM.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
zorro #273903 11/15/2012 12:43 AM
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My fellow collectors:
I did a seminar at the Max Show on Rohm and Himmler daggers back in the 80's or 90's. The application of these acetate templates was done by hand. This lends itself to poor and uneven positioning of the inscription. I've even seen acid bleed through on original examples. This occurred when they perforated the template when applying it by hand. There have also been discussion for 40 years as to the possible existence that more then one template was used on the Rohm daggers made by Pack. I have examined 100's of Rohm daggers over the years but that was hands on and not some image on a computer screen. I've studied Rohm Inscription for many years and all I can tell you is the mark of being and expert in this field is when you realize you don't know anything.

Gailen

Last edited by Gailen David; 11/15/2012 01:15 AM.
zorro #273915 11/15/2012 04:55 AM
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Zorro,can you be more specific,i don't understand what do you mean(to round and not linear or straight in areas)?


Stingray

patrice #273916 11/15/2012 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: Pat
Originally Posted By: zorro
Genuine examples are very rare and 90% of the ones I see are fake.Believe it or not near perfect Roehm daggers have and are being made to this day.


Absolute non sense, could we please see one of yours 100% original E.Pack full Rohm please ?

I've clearly shown the reasons why I thought it was fake, it would also be very important for you to tell us why you think the other Rohm is also fake. Negative comments have to be proven or else it just becomes futile.

Thank you
Stingray,My opinion was challenged so I have already supplied all the information I wish too presently.Pat asked for pictures of an 100% original E.Pack Roehm dagger and he got it.

Last edited by zorro; 11/15/2012 05:38 AM.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
stingray #273917 11/15/2012 05:32 AM
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As I have stated in the past on this forum, Pack was a large manufacturer and had multiple trademarks during the first couple of years of political dagger production. Joe Pankowski and I studied the Pack SAs and both came to the conclusion that Gailen is absolutely correct on the differing templates for the Rohm daggers, so you will never be able to be totally sure on the positioning of the TMs or the alignment of the letters on the inscription.
Pack, Eickhorn and a few others are not as easy to tell as say an F. Dick or some of the other makers who made very few of the Rohms.
So, we can beat this topic to death and not arrive with a final determination IMO.


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Originally Posted By: Ronald Weinand
As I have stated in the past on this forum, Pack was a large manufacturer and had multiple trademarks during the first couple of years of political dagger production. Joe Pankowski and I studied the Pack SAs and both came to the conclusion that Gailen is absolutely correct on the differing templates for the Rohm daggers, so you will never be able to be totally sure on the positioning of the TMs or the alignment of the letters on the inscription.
Pack, Eickhorn and a few others are not as easy to tell as say an F. Dick or some of the other makers who made very few of the Rohms.
So, we can beat this topic to death and not arrive with a final determination IMO.
Ron are you saying an original could be considered a fake and a fake could be considerd an original? that even the experts can't say for sure. Which would back up my claim that near perfect fakes were and are being made.I'm impressed.


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zorro #273946 11/15/2012 07:17 PM
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Sorry for the late reply but I had a busy schedule.

Once again, I do not believe one moment that a perfect fake exist, if so, please prove it.
It is too easy to simply claim one theory after another and not simply prove it. On an hand inspection there is no doubt in my mind that a fake wouldn't pass the test.
There are certain Rohm maker marked that are even impossible to fake without raising huge red flags, like Henckel for instance, way too many unique variables to even come close to a " possible " fake. Will not go through the list of unique flaws as it is to long.
The first Rohm from Stingray is in my opinion fake for all the reasons that I've listed to him. However, the second Rohm, which isn't mine by the way, is 100% geniune and there is no doubt about it. Like Gailen said, these were made by hand and there are certain imperfections unique to every engraving.
I see absolutely no difference between yours and the Rohm number 2. In any case, if we follow your logic, why yours wouldn't be just a perfect fake ?
To me these are the type of "free" claims that surface once in a while on the market but for which there are ZERO proof of evidence. Just another hypothetical theory worth nothing without any proof of evidence.
No disrespect intended, just saying what I think is right.

Last edited by Pat; 11/15/2012 07:18 PM.
patrice #273949 11/15/2012 07:48 PM
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Pat you have answered your own question.If a fake was perfect no-one could tell and for $20k-$30k it's going to be tough to say the least.Show a picture of the trademark.I profided my 100% no-doubt Roehm IMO so lets see some more details of the one you show,makermark complete inscription ect.Pat I took a quick look at the #2 Roehm of stingray and it's not even close to mine in many ways,Trademark,Trademark location ect.What I am saying is that IMO mine has the traits I consider needed to be genuine without doubt EP&S Roehm dagger.If you like other styles of EP&S thats fine with me.P.S Come on Pat #2 is just awful if you think mine looks like that there is no use for any other discussion on Roehm daggers.Lastly if all the experts know so much on Roehm why do all of us spell his name wrong? myself included because we are subjected to opinions that are not correct(I could be wrong on this,If I am my mistske. Tim

Last edited by zorro; 11/15/2012 08:22 PM.

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zorro #273956 11/15/2012 08:47 PM
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I can't provide any pictures because the dagger does not belong to me, pictures were provided by Stingray.
As you are probably aware, there were more than 1 trademark for E.Pack being used. The trademark location is the least of my worries on E. Pack, it is another matter though on other maker marked.
I don't like others styles but yours seems genuine, just like Stingray's number 2 Roehm.
Again, we are judging from pics alone and it is easier when there are obvious red flags on a dagger, which isn't the case on this one.
Using a microscope, you can tell if a Roehm inscription is 100% original or not and it is an easy thing to do, this is why a perfect fake is impossible when you have the dagger in hands.

Last edited by Pat; 11/15/2012 08:48 PM.
patrice #273960 11/15/2012 09:29 PM
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You are defending #1 and it is not even in your possession or in hand as we say? What a moot point this has been,futile indeed.#2 Is an obvious fake and you have a real one to compair it too(Mine).Oh well it's been fun.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
zorro #273963 11/15/2012 10:04 PM
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I never said the dagger was mine in the first place and I don't see the relevance of your complaint.
I'm merely giving my opinion since Stingray directly contacted me to have my opinion.
We have a new Guru in town so it means, a bit of humility from your part would be greatly desired.

I do have a real one on hand but since it is futile, using your own words, there is no need for me to post it.

patrice #273978 11/16/2012 05:56 AM
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Ok,here are more pictures of both my Rohms trade marks

Stingray

mini-Rohm xxx 001.JPG (44.49 KB, 257 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 002.JPG (57.25 KB, 257 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 003.JPG (34.91 KB, 257 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 006.JPG (44.75 KB, 257 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 009.JPG (57.45 KB, 257 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 010.JPG (60.7 KB, 256 downloads)
stingray #273979 11/16/2012 05:59 AM
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And here is one more partial ground Rohm from my collection just to show different TM


Stingray

mini-Rohm xxx 011.JPG (43.84 KB, 256 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 012.JPG (52.34 KB, 255 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 013.JPG (52.09 KB, 254 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 014.JPG (46.06 KB, 255 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 015.JPG (43.49 KB, 254 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 016.JPG (60.61 KB, 254 downloads)
mini-Rohm xxx 017.JPG (65.12 KB, 255 downloads)
patrice #274020 11/16/2012 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Pat

I never said the dagger was mine in the first place and I don't see the relevance of your complaint.
I'm merely giving my opinion since Stingray directly contacted me to have my opinion.
We have a new Guru in town so it means, a bit of humility from your part would be greatly desired.

I do have a real one on hand but since it is futile, using your own words, there is no need for me to post it.
Humilty ! All I said when I got in this thread was that both daggers looked fake to me.Then you started your bombardment about my opinion,Lets see my Roehm,no proof,futile,nonsense,ect and the daggers are not yours and your opinions are based on pictues.So I called your hand.I am try to help people to not spend 20k -30k and prevent them from being naive like some people I know.If million dollar paintings,and U S currency can be faked so can exspensive daggers,believe what you want.I am not a new dagger guru I am an old dagger guru and you a dagger guru want to be.You do excell at one thing,double talk and insulting and condescending to people when shown to be mistaken as for your dagger I would be afraid to post it myself.Like the U.S flag I bow to no one.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
zorro #274023 11/16/2012 05:44 PM
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What I am saying in this thread is that Pack had several variations concerning Trademark, distances and letter bending or placement among originals. Pack made too many original variations to make blanket statements like the trademark is too far from the crossguard or the inscription is too far down the blade.
Packs must be assessed in hand.
So, Recall Pat, comparing your "original" to all other Pack Roehms is not a valid method (just my opinion).


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