|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
|
OP
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264 |
All people can wrong, but only fools persist in the errors
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
|
|
OP
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264 |
All people can wrong, but only fools persist in the errors
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
|
|
OP
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264 |
All people can wrong, but only fools persist in the errors
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
|
|
OP
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264 |
Thank you all for your answers
It was very educational to read
Regards,
Vitaliy
All people can wrong, but only fools persist in the errors
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
Vitaliy,
First, I'm sorry for the delay, and in answer to your question there are legitimate SS sabers. Which I am sorry to say seem to be significantly outnumbered by the fakes/altered original German Army sabers. Having (without doing any checking/research because of time constraints) from my perspective two immediate areas of concern. With the first being that the background for the Sigrunen seems a little unusual in appearance to me in the images, and may indicate an appliqué. And the second being machine screws instead of a rivet to retain the grip backstrap.
Regards, FP
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
The screws bother me, also. There are apparently original SS sabers with applied runes, but they can raise suspicion. The plating on this example looks odd to me, like it has been replated with a thicker than usual coating of silver. It could have been gold-plated originally and silver-plated later. The darkening of the background seems to be thin. The plating shows practically no polished highlights from normal wear and cleaning, but there are "minty" examples around. You can see a bit of "wear through" of the plating on the eagle's breast, but does not appear to be tarnished, as you would expect, unless, of course, it has been cleaned. But the area around the eagle does not appear to have been cleaned or polished. I don't think there is any doubt it is an original saber, but it might well have been embellished by replating and the addition of the runes. To me, it is somewhat questionable as to authenticity, but a physical examination could indicate otherwise. As to price, real ones are quite expensive, at least from dealers. Asking $10,000 to $12,000 and up is not unheard of, mostly due to the runes being present. Again, close personal scrutiny on this one is called for, but the screws on the hilt remain troublesome to me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264
|
|
OP
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 264 |
Thank You
FP,Grumpy.
Regards,
Vitaliy
All people can wrong, but only fools persist in the errors
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,020 Likes: 31
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,020 Likes: 31 |
This is a well known HÖLLER Model (I did own the same in gold, please see the attachment).
The special feature of this model is that on the front side of the backstrap (the side to the onlooker) there is a faked screw, only engraved, without funktion. On the reverse there is a true, funktionally screw. This is ALL RIGHT to this certain HÖLLER model.
Without any doubt there were period silver Lionshead sabers for the SS as several period photographs do proof. These were NOT custom duty sabers as custom did use gold hilted sabers as period documentation prooves.
All silver sabers with SS runes commonly are spurious, you never know when they did get them...... Personally I do appreciate those unaltered ones like the one shown (produced by WKC) which did come directly from the family of the former wearer (SS) and has NO runes.
The general overall view of the certain saber shown by alien does not look bad. But the aera of the runes and around the runes, with the different colored look does no fit my requirements for a doubtless period feature.
Although you have to keep in mind that early, heavy sabers (like mine) were made from silvered brass, wearing could remove partially the silvering. But a saber in the certain nearly unworn, unpatinated condition with worn silvering only exactly at the runes and especially their lower portions is another chapter.
Original, doubtless and unaltred silver lionshad sabers are imho very very rare.
Regards,
Last edited by wotan; 10/30/2012 04:34 PM.
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
wotan, Thank you for sharing your expertise with this model of saber by Höller. Would it be possible for you to share the other side of the grip backstrap? And more specifically the screw head, because I am curious to know if they are all not of equal diameter from one side to the other? And when I slightly enhanced and put together the two sides as an image for the forum - I noticed that where the red arrow is pointing, it looked like something had damaged the backstrap? Which I am assuming is just something we see just with this particular saber?? Best Regards, Fred
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026 |
This is a well known HÖLLER Model (I did own the same in gold, please see the attachment).
The special feature of this model is that on the front side of the backstrap (the side to the onlooker) there is a faked screw, only engraved, without funktion. On the reverse there is a true, funktionally screw. This is ALL RIGHT to this certain HÖLLER model.
Without any doubt there were period silver Lionshead sabers for the SS as several period photographs do proof. These were NOT custom duty sabers as custom did use gold hilted sabers as period documentation prooves.
All silver sabers with SS runes commonly are spurious, you never know when they did get them...... Personally I do appreciate those unaltered ones like the one shown (produced by WKC) which did come directly from the family of the former wearer (SS) and has NO runes.
The general overall view of the certain saber shown by alien does not look bad. But the aera of the runes and around the runes, with the different colored look does no fit my requirements for a doubtless period feature.
Although you have to keep in mind that early, heavy sabers (like mine) were made from silvered brass, wearing could remove partially the silvering. But a saber in the certain nearly unworn, unpatinated condition with worn silvering only exactly at the runes and especially their lower portions is another chapter.
Original, doubtless and unaltred silver lionshad sabers are imho very very rare.
Regards, How do you feel about silver lion head SS swords with enameled rune buttons attached to them?
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274 |
How do you feel about silver lion head SS swords with enameled rune buttons attached to them? IMO there are a very, very, few within a narrow set of parameters that look like original period pieces. And a bunch of fakes - not that they are seen every day. With sabers that have a new electroplated silver finish. Other zinc and aluminum sabers that are polished to a bright natural silver finish. Zinc that is either painted silver, or has a chemical silver (for rejuvenating dinnerware) applied over the zinc (or brass). And sometimes appliqués that range from simple buttons to more elaborate larger ones that completely cover the original langet. Also officer and EM types with the Runes engraved or mechanically (in relief) carved into the langet. Or soldered in place after reworking the interior. And for the more ambitious fakers - entirely new hilts made from silver having cast in place Sigrunen. With perhaps a few other minor types that have also surfaced from time to time. Fred
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,674
|
|
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,674 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,020 Likes: 31
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,020 Likes: 31 |
@ frogprince:
Although I have only one photograph of the reverse I can assure you that the fake screw head and the real screw head do have slightly different dimensions (the real screw head is slightly larger and even to it´s surroundings, the fake cast screw is high lift).
@ zorro: frogprince did hit the nail on the head! Also in my opinion those with enameled rune buttons attached (anywhere, mostly on the reverse) are originally very very rare and more fakes than originals around .
There is one WKC model lionshead saber with big silver runs in the black enameled crossguard front (!) shield. These are right as rain, dokumented in the WKC cataloge and in period wearing pics.
Regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,020 Likes: 31
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,020 Likes: 31 |
Forgot to mention: @ frogprince, I do think the "damage" in the silver saber shown by alien is just one of common casting flaws.
Regards,
wotan, gd.c-b#105
"Never look for sqare eggs" as a late owner of an original FHH-dagger used to say.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077 |
Back to the one originally posted. there are screws on both sides of the hilt. Both look modern to me, but, certainly, that is arguable. In any case, it looks like the hilt was disassembled, plated or replated and re-assembled. The question remains whether it started out as being gold or silver. I own an early "NCO" example, with runes on the front langet and intertwined initials on the reverse on - all finely engraved. I have no doubt as to its authenticity. I also own three other SS sabers, but I don't have them handy. One is the early Alcoso cavalry model( Model 113?), which is documented in that company's catalog as an SS leader's saber, apparently the first known "official" SS sword; another with the Nazi eagle, also documented in the company's catalog as being available in silver-plate and a triple-engraved example with cavalry motif. Extreme caution and extensive research should be conducted prior to buying an SS saber. They do exist, but the easy addition of runes and available replating services has led to many "redone" sabers to fool collectors.
|
|
|
|
Forums42
Topics31,668
Posts329,043
Members7,519
| |
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
|
|
|
7 members (sellick8302@rogers.com, Mikee, Matarese, Skyline Drive, gerdhagedorn, ollar, polop),
909
guests, and
127
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
r.JPG){kind=link}
r.JPG){kind=link}