Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#270387 09/05/2012 05:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46
L
OP Offline
L
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46










Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46
L
OP Offline
L
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46


Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
Z
Offline
Z
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,026
It looks awfully good for being a fake.What is the big give away IYO? PM me if you don't want to publish it.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
No access to Photoshop at the moment for enlargements and I'm on my way out. But it looks to me like the "etching" might not be etching but a rotary (mechanical) engraving. So I'm thinking that the "Hühnlein - NSKK High Leader" daggers might be having some new 'competition' to be aware of in the future. FP

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
A
A J Offline
Offline
A
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
Zorro as Fred says inscription looks like a dremel job compare to the bit of the etched trademark in the last picture
Lost dutchman is the person peddling the junk you have been showing in the last few days a private person or a dealer in your area? If its a dealer we need to know

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46
L
OP Offline
L
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46
Originally Posted By: A J
Zorro as Fred says inscription looks like a dremel job compare to the bit of the etched trademark in the last picture
Lost dutchman is the person peddling the junk you have been showing in the last few days a private person or a dealer in your area? If its a dealer we need to know


It's not a dealer but rather a collector looking to liquidate who looks to have been whizzed.

I was also told that the Eickhorn was fake as well and done at the same time as the inscription.

Last edited by Lost Dutchman; 09/05/2012 07:24 PM.
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
Offline
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
All the info isn't in, but it looks like etching to me.

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,702
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,702
Likes: 1
The dagger itself is not a fake in IMO but the etching and the (logo especially) is a carbon copy ( including the same smudging and characteristics ) as seen in Ralf Siegerts SS book pg 301.


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
Let Me know where this aleged fake is being sold as I'm interested in it....

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46
L
OP Offline
L
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46
It was for sale from a collector. It's not for sale by a dealer.

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
How much?

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46
L
OP Offline
L
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 46
It's apparently being returned to an unnamed dealer for a refund.

I do know that the collector was in it for $10k plus.

Last edited by Lost Dutchman; 09/06/2012 02:18 AM.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
Dang, I had envisioned scoring a real Himmler for the price of a repo:)))

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
I would imagine that the guys at the time that were buying up the "Krupp" daggers thought that they were getting bargains. With the "Krupp" daggers not the first rotary engraved examples that were specifically made for the TR collector's market - but perhaps one of the more instructive ones because there is no question that they are complete fakes versus altered originals. With the added benefit (IMO) being that they can demonstrate the technology used to those who may not be as well versed in some of the more technical aspects of general manufacturing.

With the first image a "Krupp" dagger which had the logo rotary engraved inside of an area cut by something like an ordinary end-mill. With the rest of the pictures from the dagger posted by the 'Lost Dutchman', where I think that the similarities should be fairly obvious to most guys who may have been undecided. But if not then I can always go over the ones posted here, and possibly some examples from other daggers if necessary. PS: The TM image did not really have enough pixels, so what is posted is my best effort with what I had. With the inscription darkening on the SS dagger posted IMO most likely a paint. FP

'Krupp'-rotary-engraving.jpg (86.59 KB, 324 downloads)
himmler10-GDC-copy.jpg (64.76 KB, 326 downloads)
himmler11-GDC-copy.jpg (40.62 KB, 322 downloads)
himmler12-GDC-copy.jpg (77.64 KB, 325 downloads)
himmler8-GDC-copy.jpg (14.6 KB, 334 downloads)
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
A
A J Offline
Offline
A
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
Sigfried B not sure what you mean about "carbon copy" of the one shown in Ralf's book on page301
definitely not the same dagger to my eyes and just because a dagger's in a book doesn't mean it is genuine Third Reich produced just look at some of the fantasy stuff Attwood had in his 1970's dagger book

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
As Siegfried states, this dagger is most certainly shown in a full page lay out in Ralf's book on both pages, 300 and 301. There is no mistaking it. Thank you for pointing that out.

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
So Fred, you're saying that without a doubt in you mind, that this dagger that started the topic is one of the " Rotary Club Repo's" that you so often talk about ?

Last edited by JR; 09/06/2012 04:02 PM.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
The Himmler dedication, lower crossguard and blade, is even shown on page 302 on a full page as well.

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,005
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,005
Likes: 1
I have no problems with the dagger in question.
I believe it to be original.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 693
R
RFI Offline
Offline
R
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 693
There is no way this dagger is a rotary engraved dagger. This dagger is as "textbook" as they come!
Fred, can I respectfully ask how many daggers you own and have studied? Do you have a mentor in the hobby and who would he be? To my understanding you have either no, or very few daggers in your possession.
I look forward to your reply! These repetitive statements you make on artifacts that are original is damaging to the artifacts and history!
Talk soon,
Bob

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Originally Posted By: JR
So Fred, you're saying that without a doubt in you mind, that this dagger that started the topic is one of the " Rotary Club Repo's" that you so often talk about ?

JR, What I said was that it seems to me in the images that there are some things that seem to be more consistent with that type of engraving rather than with acid etching. Which is usually where I ask for more, much closer images, and maybe some at different angles to kill the glare from the lighting. Which is was what was so interesting with the 'textbook' so called "Hühnlein" NSKK High Leader daggers because no further pictures were forthcoming after the topic of engraving was brought up. But eventually I did get some good high resolution shots that showed the individual cutter markings inside the characters. Which is what I was hoping we might see here as some kind of resolution of the matter (Ie: a clarification) with some different images that toned down the glare, because one of the problems in the past with paint in rotary engraved crossguards is that it obscures the freshness of the markings (and smoothes them out) in contrast with the rest of metal surface. Whereas a two step process on a blade with a black oxide over acid etching tends to be matt like the etching itself. Fred

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
This Himmler is so easy to call without blowing up photos, photo shop, comparing rotary engraving or using any other distorted imaging techniques. It is basic Himmler Honor daggers 101. If you've never had a Himmler to inspect in close detail, a person wouldn't have a clue of what they are looking at. And if you have had a Himmler Honor dagger or several of them over the years,there is no doubt in a person's mind what they are viewing, be it on the internet, or in their hand.

Last edited by JR; 09/06/2012 07:33 PM.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 693
R
RFI Offline
Offline
R
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 693
In the helmet world, if this were a helmet, it would be called a "one-looker"! Fred, I know you truly want to help people which is admirable, but your comments on this dagger show your level of knowledge. It is very damaging to our hobby as a whole, please, please, stop these comments on items you have no knowledge on!
If you have well established knowledge on an item I am very happy to read it, but hypothesis on items you see for the first time is where the problem lies.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Originally Posted By: JR
This Himmler is so easy to call without blowing up photos, photo shop, comparing rotary engraving or using any other distorted imaging techniques. It is basic Himmler Honor daggers 101. If you've never had a Himmler to inspect in close detail, a person wouldn't have a clue of what they are looking at. And if you have had a Himmler Honor dagger or several of them over the years,there is no doubt in a person's mind what they are viewing, be it on the internet, or in their hand.

JR, Ten years ago I would not have questioned the dagger. But in the last few years I've seen some really good examples of the rotary engraving of script that have caused me to be much more cautious, with the chain links another area where I think that even some of the "old hands" have occasionally gotten themselves in trouble. Fred

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 925
K
Offline
K
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 925
I'm not an Expert on inscription daggers,but after i've seen these new close ups pics and compared with my DB,
I don't see anything wrong with it.

Gerd

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever.

Last edited by JR; 09/06/2012 08:19 PM.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
I think it looks ok to me, people love to trash our daggers and soon nobody will be posting pictures for everyone to judge. my Himmler is getting trashed over on the WRF forum they call it a monster with a postwar inscription and chain. it's not perfect but it is what it is. but people just love to steer you wrong.

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
Wes, ***********************************

JR, I like the looks of the dagger too, but you need to choose different words to respond.

Dave

Last edited by Dave Hohaus; 09/07/2012 12:23 AM.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
agreed.

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,005
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,005
Likes: 1
Fred Suggest you post one of your Himmlers and show us how it differs.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
every picture I got is too big and wont load, can I send the pictures to someone here to resize? it was shown here about 5 years ago or so.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Offline
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,274
Originally Posted By: JR
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever ............... and now it's time for collectors to stand up.

Jr, I understand what you are saying. With what I was looking for at first was some better pictures for comparison. And what is happening overall now IMO is that some of the “pushback” is from those collectors who are tired of the legitimization of the actual trash which is what IMO is really polluting collecting and the collecting experience.

With some guys out there still protecting their “bottom line” by selling/promoting altered and/or fantasy items with the SS daggers just being one high profile aspect of the whole picture - with a long list of fakes in TR dagger collecting that collectors should at least be aware of.

So we now should all “stand up” for cast brass M 1936 SS chain links? Really?? Fred

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
I got these two pictures to load.

image_3%20DISASSEMBLED.jpg (15.88 KB, 230 downloads)
image_4%20DISASSEMBLED.jpg (13.47 KB, 229 downloads)
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
Wes, The entire dagger needs to be shown to assist in identification. Do you only just own the blade or complete dagger?

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 59
A
Offline
A
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 59
Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: JR
Fred, feel free to call on me or any of the others who have been in this hobby for long time, so a legit item doesn't get trashed before it has a chance to stand on it's own. This is quite detrimental to the hobby and I'm seeing a trend of it more often than ever ............... and now it's time for collectors to stand up.

Jr, I understand what you are saying. With what I was looking for at first was some better pictures for comparison. And what is happening overall now IMO is that some of the “pushback” is from those collectors who are tired of the legitimization of the actual trash which is what IMO is really polluting collecting and the collecting experience.

With some guys out there still protecting their “bottom line” by selling/promoting altered and/or fantasy items with the SS daggers just being one high profile aspect of the whole picture - with a long list of fakes in TR dagger collecting that collectors should at least be aware of.

So we now should all “stand up” for cast brass M 1936 SS chain links? Really?? Fred


No, I am afraid that within the last two years maybe three your analysis and critiques have been more than questionable and whether you realize it or not you credibility has withered substantially. I don't own a Himmler but have handled many a dagger and that piece is a one looker. All your doing is damaging legitimate pieces in many cases with your criteria and somewhat long winded explanations and John Madden style picture play maps. It is time for collectors to stand up to this type of thing.

Jack

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
W
Offline
W
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 688
I have the whole thing but cant load my other pictures, as I said it was shown here a few years back, it's not been well cared for in the past , but it's mine

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,536
Likes: 4
Send the photos to Paul or Bob, Wes. Either will help you out and probably post them if you like

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
Offline
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,077
The water in the hobby continues to be muddled. Micrometers, chemical testing, microscopic examinations, etc. Either it's "real" or it's not. This reminds me of the myth of a few years ago that all "smooth-tailed" Himmler's are fake. It gained some traction, until several knowledgeable collectors finally put an end to it. No doubt, some collectors have gotten out their Himmler's and Rohm's, too, to try to determine if the inscription is engraved. This kind of thing can lead to greatly devaluing some daggers. If this course is pursued, it should be done in an independent laboratory with daggers in hand, not through a handful of photos by amateurs.

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
A
A J Offline
Offline
A
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,049
JR and Siegfried B I respect you both as good guys in this hobby and in my previous post I am not saying the dagger at the start of this thread ain't real but it definately to my eyes ain't the dagger on pages 301 and 302 in Ralf's book which is attributed to RK collection unfortunately there are four RKs in the acknowledgements so no idea who owned the dagger then.Pitting near himmler on one is to above and on the other to below the inscription.

Last edited by A J; 09/06/2012 10:59 PM.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,702
Likes: 1
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,702
Likes: 1
I like to know what happened to the 2 pc hanger that was shown in Ralfs book as that one is marked RZM over the M5/71 and over the OLC diamond,, compared to Lost Dutchmans example which has the DRGM logo only on the clip. Im still not convinced. I guess the only way to find out is if someone knows who R.K. is listed in Ralfs book as the owner and find out if he sold it?


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,226,141 SS Bayonets
1,726,431 Teno Insignia Set
1,088,658 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
Help needed please
by Dudgeon - 12/04/2022 08:53 AM
Jungschutzen Korps, Wolfsburg
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 12/04/2022 12:02 AM
New Indiana Jones !
by Dave - 12/01/2022 10:50 PM
Searching for Carl Blumenreuter H R
by Gaspare - 11/30/2022 04:56 PM
Black Grip SA
by Vern - 11/29/2022 12:35 PM
Latest New Posts
What is this Org. ?
by derjager - 12/04/2022 09:06 PM
Help needed please
by Dave - 12/04/2022 02:24 PM
Jungschutzen Korps, Wolfsburg
by C. Wetzel-20609 - 12/04/2022 02:08 AM
Kyffhäuserbund and N.S. Reichskriegerbund badges.
by derjager - 12/04/2022 01:54 AM
C. E. Schmachtenberg, Solingen
by Dave - 12/03/2022 10:39 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics31,332
Posts324,649
Members7,261
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
9 members (sod, seany, derjager, ORPO, Nietzsche, Ringo69, OK&G, jeeplover, ed773), 89 guests, and 71 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5