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#268094 07/21/2012 03:34 PM
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Gentleman
Here is the type 1 for your consideration.
I am looking to purchase it ????
thanks in advance
michael

IMG_1076.JPG (106.35 KB, 397 downloads)
IMG_1077.JPG (105.51 KB, 397 downloads)
IMG_1080.JPG (99.7 KB, 397 downloads)
IMG_1082.JPG (110.18 KB, 396 downloads)
IMG_1088.JPG (118.47 KB, 396 downloads)
Last edited by 1942collector; 07/21/2012 03:54 PM.
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more pics

IMG_1102.JPG (120.94 KB, 395 downloads)
IMG_1103.JPG (65.85 KB, 394 downloads)
IMG_1105.JPG (105.1 KB, 394 downloads)
IMG_1108.JPG (110.44 KB, 395 downloads)
IMG_1109.JPG (116.44 KB, 394 downloads)
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more pics

IMG_1112.JPG (89.46 KB, 389 downloads)
IMG_1113.JPG (112.58 KB, 389 downloads)
IMG_1117.JPG (94.56 KB, 389 downloads)
IMG_1110.JPG (83.09 KB, 388 downloads)
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I guess it is a good piece but this is only my opinion let's wait for others ...

Gottlieb #268120 07/21/2012 09:17 PM
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I don't like the looks of it right or wrong.

Last edited by zorro; 07/21/2012 09:18 PM.

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Original type 1 . Scabbard has been repainted . JMO

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Originally Posted By: byf41@aol.com
Original type 1 . Scabbard has been repainted . JMO

That could be a painted type finish over the original one, which is why it's harder to get a good sense of what's underneath. Although that does not work as well with one of the links, which looks to be a replacement that is only partially camouflaged by the new finish. FP

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Wow so far opinions are all over the map on this one.......when one needs a PhD in this hobby the fun is all but gone...cheers

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Gentleman
I would think remarks from photo's need to be questioned as to wright or wrong especially if they are not backed up with reasonable facts. Especially IMOs.
This dagger was accepted as all original by one of our better known SS Dagger Book publishers as a type 1 SS Officer Chained Dagger, magnetic plated chain and fittings, he did not think the scabbard was repainted.
What I am hearing from others and this forum is its somewhat of a guessing game. If you get 10 people involved you almost get 10 separate answers. Without reasonable solid facts or proof to back up a statement it means what?????????????????????????
thanks
michael

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Michael, It is a "Type I" and I can see that I should have been more clear as to the intent of my earlier comment. My concern is more with the link set and the type of finish. With what looks like possibly one replacement link and what may (or may not be) some kind of a finish over the nickel plating. So for me a better/closer look would be what I would want before a purchase.

PS: The grip has some cracks and pieces missing that did not happen all by itself. Also looking a tad undersize in places, so it could be a replacement/parts piece. And it has been "tarted up" some, but to each his own, because it is your call to make for a closer look/better pictures like the scabbard mouthpiece to crossguard fit etc. etc. FP

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Hi Fred
I now see the two areas you have pointed out.
The one below the throat is if I remember some plating missing and therefore looks funny and a different color.
The link you pointed out looks to be missing the groove so this will be something I will more closely examine when I see it again first hand.
I have examined it once first hand and it mostly looks ok by my limited knowledge taking into consideration it has been around for 75+ years, it is not mint but above average overall condition, everything fits very-very good and the finishes all match plus a very nice blade.
Thanks for you pointed out areas of concern and I will check them out again.
best regards
michael

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Originally Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com
Wow so far opinions are all over the map on this one.......when one needs a PhD in this hobby the fun is all but gone...cheers

If you could just go to Wahlmart and buy one of these what fun would that be, the questions make it much more of a challenge.
mike

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"accepted as all original by one of our better known SS Dagger Book publishers"

I think when you make a comment like this when asking for opinions you are going to get few and limited ones..

Gaspare #268309 07/24/2012 11:24 PM
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I would be interested to know the "accepted as all original by one of our better known SS Dagger Book publishers" actually took place.

Was it sent to him for a written appraisal?

Dave

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Originally Posted By: 1942collector
Hi Fred
I now see the two areas you have pointed out. The one below the throat is if I remember some plating missing and therefore looks funny and a different color..................................

Michael, To me the area next to the throat (the red arrow letter - a) looks like nickel plating. With a second arrow where the links attach to the upper mount attaching bracket (letter - b) uncertain, but possibly nickel plating. With letter "c" showing a demarcation line between the nickel plating, and what might be some kind of paint. With the paint (if that is what it is) being used over not just the scabbard mounts/chain, but possibly on the crossguards as well.

I am not saying that I'm certain of this. But it is something that I would be looking at very closely - as the condition of the nickel plating has a direct bearing on value. Fred

GDC-for-Michael-web-copy.jpg (24.06 KB, 243 downloads)
Dave #268324 07/25/2012 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
I would be interested to know the "accepted as all original by one of our better known SS Dagger Book publishers" actually took place.

Was it sent to him for a written appraisal?

Dave

Hi Dave
Yes it was sent to the well known (dealer/book writer) on consignment, the dealer had it for sale at a very high dollar and it did not sell. It was returned to the owner and is for sale now buy the owner.

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: 1942collector
Hi Fred
I now see the two areas you have pointed out. The one below the throat is if I remember some plating missing and therefore looks funny and a different color..................................

Michael, To me the area next to the throat (the red arrow letter - a) looks like nickel plating. With a second arrow where the links attach to the upper mount attaching bracket (letter - b) uncertain, but possibly nickel plating. With letter "c" showing a demarcation line between the nickel plating, and what might be some kind of paint. With the paint (if that is what it is) being used over not just the scabbard mounts/chain, but possibly on the crossguards as well.

I am not saying that I'm certain of this. But it is something that I would be looking at very closely - as the condition of the nickel plating has a direct bearing on value. Fred

Hi Fred
Guess I am missing what you are saying?
Are you saying the nickle plating looks to be painted on?
Are you saying the nickle plating in these areas is not perfect so it has a bearing on the value?
Sorry but could you be more clear as to what you are seeing?
My take on these areas.
The bracket that holds the first link is always silver soldiered or brazed to the side of the throat. Then the area around the joint finished/polished to clean it up. Then plated therefore there would be some evidence of a build up where the two pieces meet.
The build up at the throat entrance I cannot explain as I do not have it in hand for a close examination but I will check this area out.
What I really like is the way the nickle plating has turned to a frosted look which is typical of older nickle plating, I have seen this on many old Colt Single Actions. The old nickle plating processes were not quite as stable as our modern day processes especially when plated on a steel base.
thanks
michael

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Michael, What I am saying is this: Yes, well aged nickel plating can have a whitish or perhaps silverish “frosted” appearance depending on the lighting. With the “Type I’s” using an older process which left uneven deposits that needed to be polished to have a bright finish. But with the dagger posted here (for its age) appearing to have an overall exceptionally good smooth/even matte silverish appearance. Except of course underneath the mouthpiece lip - which is bright.

So for comparison purposes here is an aged “Type I” cloverleaf in three physical states: Uneven aged original - as manufactured deposits in the recesses. Bright on the worn exposed surfaces. And some areas where the plating has lifted to expose bare steel and traces of rust. With my concern here being that there may be some kind of a secondary surface finish covering up defects in chain set - plus. Because we don’t want to forget the link that does not have a center line, the damaged grip missing pieces, etc. etc. All contributing to why I would want a very, very close inspection to try and determine just what is going on. Regards, Fred

%22Type I%22 cloverleaf.jpg (108.96 KB, 203 downloads)
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Fred
Thanks again for the areas to be cautious and I will look these over very closely. I do remember seeing some very small worn or chipped areas that had some rust underneath, they were like very pin point size.
I would think if this dagger was examined by one of the SS dagger book writers and offered for sale by him it should be all original?????? Would not you agree?
Here are a couple shots of the dagger when he had it for sale, I have tried to compare but his just do not have the details.
Mike

31611a.jpg (86.79 KB, 186 downloads)
31611l.jpg (72.67 KB, 184 downloads)
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I will admit I'm no expert on these chained SS daggers but I have worked with metal my whole life. Looking at the dagger and chain in question, the chain and upper fitting have the dull appearance as if it were sand blasted with a fine sand or media. Depending on the angle it may have been done, the shoulder on the throat would have shielded the upper scabbard band leaving it shinny at the top. If indeed this chain was in bad shape at one time, blasting would have brought back the detail but would have also left it with a frosted looking finish. Just my opinion.

Rich


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Originally Posted By: 1942collector
Fred Thanks again for the areas to be cautious and I will look these over very closely. I do remember seeing some very small worn or chipped areas that had some rust underneath, they were like very pin point size.

I would think if this dagger was examined by one of the SS dagger book writers and offered for sale by him it should be all original?????? Would not you agree?..................... Mike

Negative. I have spoken a number of times to at least one very well recognized figure in collecting (and some others who were supposed to be the 'Cognoscenti'). And when I tried to get technical ............ well ......... let's just say that it did not work out, and it was not on my end. And it was not about "anodizing" or some of those other no brainers, as he (and they) seemed truly clueless as to what I was asking or trying to discuss. And while it does not happen all the time. On various and sundry websites devoted to collecting you will see items that fail to pass muster, need refunds or adjustments etc. etc. So I don't like to automatically take somebody's "word" or "opinion" at face value if it contradicts what I have learned on my own, or maybe with the help of the guys who are really, really, serious collectors. But that is just my take on it from my own personal perspective.

PS: I also understand the point made by Rich as regards media blasting as it does have some similarities, but would not commit to that myself without some much better/closer images.

Regards to all, Fred

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Hello Fred
I am glade to hear someone finally make the statement that some and probably most of the book authors are good writers/authors but when it comes to factual-technical information on their subject they are somewhat lacking.
There also seems to be a sheepish type following to the book authors as the know all's.
I am kind of new to dagger collecting, probably only about 2-3 yrs. and do not have many dagger books. I bought a few and found them informative as far as pictures and some history goes but when it comes to the technical information needed it's just not there.
As a grad. Engineer in Casting and Metallurgy and working in those sciences for over 35 yrs. I seem to question perhaps too much.
AS far as the so called Experts go their information is mostly from dagger-specimen handling experience only and their memory.
There seems to be very little factual dagger making information available, if there is this information available has it been published?
The other thing most collectors seem to be obvious to is these dagger making companies were in business to make a living for the owners and workers and everything was not exactly the same all the time there were deviations from the norm as required probably on a daily basis, they did not throw anything away, if it was not perfect but they could sneak it thru to make production requirements they did.
Knife-Dagger making was mostly a ART not a Science. Some of the process used in making daggers was a science but the end result was for looks not a functional item.
Just my 2 cents worth.
thanks
michael

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Originally Posted By: Pitbull63

I will admit I'm no expert on these chained SS daggers but I have worked with metal my whole life. Looking at the dagger and chain in question, the chain and upper fitting have the dull appearance as if it were sand blasted with a fine sand or media. Depending on the angle it may have been done, the shoulder on the throat would have shielded the upper scabbard band leaving it shinny at the top. If indeed this chain was in bad shape at one time, blasting would have brought back the detail but would have also left it with a frosted looking finish. Just my opinion.

Rich


Hello Rich
Very interesting observation. You are correct in that blasting with the correct very fine media would have given that very even satin look. But I would think if this was the case the scabbard would have had the parts taken off for blasting and the two parts you are referring to would have been separated therefore not the shinny area. I will very closely examine this area when I get it in my hands.
My take on the satin finish is as i said previously. I have seen and owned 100% all original Colt Single Actions that had originally been nickle plated back in the 1880s and they had this same very even satin finish while others from the same period still exhibited mostly the original nickle shine.
I have ideas as to why the nickle plating over steel has that color/sheen change but no proof. The same type thing happens to the nickle plating when you see it peeling up or lifting up or bubbling up. Information I have obtained from some Plating Companies is has to do with the original material surface preparation/cleaning and the quality cleanliness of their plating tanks. Other than this its a guess.
Their nickle plating processes back then were not as good as today and perhaps thats why they changed the chains to another material along the way, they had problems with plating steel and went from as we call them type 1 to type 2 chains.
thanks for your input
michael

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Strangely with type 2 chains being initially made in nickel silver didn't they go from type 2 to type 1 and then on to both???

A J #268410 07/26/2012 11:41 PM
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AJ you Sir are quite correct.
The type II in nickel are considered the 1st made.

BTW It still holds true that the person who is the best spoken or the best typer is always the most knowledgable! smile

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Originally Posted By: lakesidetrader
AJ you Sir are quite correct.
The type II in nickel are considered the 1st made.

BTW It still holds true that the person who is the best spoken or the best typer is always the most knowledgable! smile


"2nd type & 1st type" This makes no sense why would whoever start the saying Type 2 is first made when it is the 2nd number in the sequence, it should by all logical common sense be the 2nd type made. What solid proof is there as to when what type was made, as I understand it the chains were bought from secondary suppliers to the actual dagger makers.
Does anyone have the answer???
thanks
michael

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Those of us who indeed know it all only devulge the facts and only the facts in a court of law and then only if the type 1 or type 2 dagger was used in a murder.The answer can also be found in Vol 357 page 1003 of SOLID PROOF AND COLD HARD FACTS OF ATOMS ELECTRONS AND MOLECULES of THIRD REICH DAGGERS by the one and only BIlly Spears. The series on the SA dagger will be out any day now.

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Originally Posted By: 1942collector
"2nd type & 1st type" This makes no sense why would whoever start the saying Type 2 is first made when it is the 2nd number in the sequence, it should by all logical common sense be the 2nd type made. What solid proof is there as to when what type was made, as I understand it the chains were bought from secondary suppliers to the actual dagger makers.
Does anyone have the answer??? thanks michael

Michael you may as well give up now - logic has nothing to do with it and it's locked into their DNA .............. forever it seems. I tried years ago and nothing worked. Better yet, ask some of the dedicated dagger collectors about their "anodized" steel scabbards. One "very well known" dealer even has "anodized" German combat bayonets for sale. What next ......... "anodized" German Lugers and Mauser rifles???? And try and looking up "airplane gray" as a type of metal finish. Good luck with that one wink . Welcome to the club. whistle

PS: Here is a hint - when you don't know just make up something that sounds good, and they will all get in perfect lockstep. A technique which has worked well for many years. Best Regards, Fred


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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: 1942collector
"2nd type & 1st type" This makes no sense why would whoever start the saying Type 2 is first made when it is the 2nd number in the sequence, it should by all logical common sense be the 2nd type made. What solid proof is there as to when what type was made, as I understand it the chains were bought from secondary suppliers to the actual dagger makers.
Does anyone have the answer??? thanks michael

Michael you may as well give up now - logic has nothing to do with it and it's locked into their DNA .............. forever it seems. I tried years ago and nothing worked. Better yet, ask some of the dedicated dagger collectors about their "anodized" steel scabbards. One "very well known" dealer even has "anodized" German conmbat bayonets for sale. What next ......... "anodized" German Lugers and Mauser rifles???? And try and looking up "airplane gray" as a type of metal finish. Good luck with that one wink . Welcome to the club. whistle

PS: Here is a hint - when you don't know just make up something that sounds good, and they will all get in perfect lockstep. A technique which has worked well for many years. Best Regards, Fred Another example "In their DNA" We all know a word or terminology cannot be in a persons DNA.Yet people say it and we still know exactly what they mean.Go figure?


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Originally Posted By: 1942collector
What solid proof is there as to when what type was made, as I understand it the chains were bought from secondary suppliers to the actual dagger makers. Does anyone have the answer??? thanks michael

Nickel silver is roughly 2/3 copper which is nice to have around if you need wire for generators/motors on ships and submarines, tanks, aircraft, etc. etc. So it became a restricted material and they went to steel. With nickel itself useful for certain kinds of steel alloys etc. etc. and the plating then got thinner. (All of this for a nation that did not have a lot of diverse mineral resources.) With the daggers roughly datable by what they were made of, that can be correlated to period decrees announcing what was being restricted. Best regards, Fred

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Originally Posted By: zorro
Fred Another example "In their DNA" We all know a word or terminology cannot be in a persons DNA.Yet people say it and we still know exactly what they mean.Go figure?

Zorro, Point noted and you are correct. But if I had said "metaphorically speaking" I might have been able to slide "under the radar". whistle whistle Yes, no, maybe??? wink Best regards, Fred

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Originally Posted By: zorro
Those of us who indeed know it all only devulge the facts and only the facts in a court of law and then only if the type 1 or type 2 dagger was used in a murder.The answer can also be found in Vol 357 page 1003 of SOLID PROOF AND COLD HARD FACTS OF ATOMS ELECTRONS AND MOLECULES of THIRD REICH DAGGERS by the one and only BIlly Spears. The series on the SA dagger will be out any day now.

Hello Zorro
Guess what I am hearing is there is not much actual/factual proof on anything about original dagger production( the why's and how's) what information is out there has been contrived dreamed up by individuals along the way since the end of the war 1945.
Would this be correct??????????????????
So if I want to collect daggers I am kind of on my own or at the mercy of the know-it-alls.
thanks
michael

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Fred or Zorro
Can I get a answer as to which type dagger came first and when???
What was the 1st and 2nd type chains made of ?????
thanks
michael

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Originally Posted By: 1942collector
Fred or Zorro
Can I get a answer as to which type dagger came first and when???
What was the 1st and 2nd type chains made of ?????
thanks
michael
IMO Type 2 solid nickel silver fittings w/ painted scabbard,circa 1936,based on material and quality of construction was made first,IMO type 1 came second with a heavy plated steel chain with a blued scabbard or a combination of nickel and steel,plated type 2 chains were made in the same era(1938)or RZM period as I like to say even tho they have no RZM mark. T Wittmann's book on SS edge weapons is a great place to start for info on SS Edge weapons.It's not cheap but you pay for what you get(Like SS daggers)


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michael [/quote]
Originally Posted By: 1942collector
Fred or Zorro Can I get a answer as to which type dagger came first and when??? What was the 1st and 2nd type chains made of ????? thanks michael

Michael, In the other thread I listed what I think the probable sequence was - although there might be those who could argue that the "Type X" nasal septum type (it's not in the book) was later. It's not what I think personally because of the very small number which to me suggested an early producer who was given an initial order. But that's just my own sense of it. Which IMO happened a second time with the "Type I" dagger also being a smaller order. With the one other thing to consider being the change of crossguard materials from nickel silver to (heavy nickel plate) malleable iron. And then zinc ultimately as the material of choice. With the materials used on the M 1933 daggers also roughly usable as timing determinants.

"Type "X" in nickel silver with a nasal septum.
Type "II" in nickel silver.
Type "I" in steel with heavy nickel plating.
Type "II" in steel with light nickel plating. And perhaps a new set of dies to accommodate the change in materials."


Best regards, Fred

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Strange thread. I am wondering if this has anything to do at all with the purchase of a dagger.

?

Dave #268668 07/30/2012 11:16 PM
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Back to the chains. Below are pictures I took over 10 years ago of what I believe to be a good, type 1 plated chain.

Cloverleaf 1.jpg (32.2 KB, 196 downloads)
Chain front.jpg (20.62 KB, 196 downloads)
Cloverleaf back best.jpg (18.78 KB, 196 downloads)
SS Link.jpg (30.07 KB, 196 downloads)
Type 1 Skull 1.jpg (26.8 KB, 196 downloads)
Dave #268714 07/31/2012 03:49 PM
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Another Type "1" chainset in steel with heavy nickel plating; dagger has identical configuration to yours, Dave.

Resize of IMGP0113.JPG (77.67 KB, 175 downloads)
Resize of IMGP0115.JPG (75.63 KB, 176 downloads)
Resize of IMGP0117.JPG (58.08 KB, 176 downloads)
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Barry... I have no problem with your Type I, but there are a few who would call your blade a fake because of the "fluted" letter M in the word Meine. If I recall correctly, one member of GDC adamantly claimed that this style of script was never used. Another member claimed that these blades were either Czech or Polish reproductions.

MVC-001F.JPG (87.26 KB, 161 downloads)
MVC-008F.JPG (70.16 KB, 162 downloads)
MVC-009F.JPG (43.96 KB, 162 downloads)
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That would be interesting to re-hash again. So you recall who it was ?

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