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#267842 07/17/2012 04:53 PM
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gentleman
Could I get some ideas as to originality.
Chain is magnetic.
Is this a 1st model chained?
thanks
michael

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more pics.

IMG_0751.JPG (104.89 KB, 394 downloads)
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IMG_0754.JPG (75.19 KB, 382 downloads)
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more pics.

IMG_0758.JPG (51.84 KB, 384 downloads)
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IMG_0762.JPG (110.68 KB, 376 downloads)
IMG_0763.JPG (115.47 KB, 385 downloads)
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Hi you have a true "GEM" there authentic and in absolutely beautiful condition...outstanding....cheers, Ryan

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A strange looking SS chain to say the least and one that I'm not ready to say is of the 3rd Reich period. Odd looking connectors to the Wotan's knot. The chain links and connectors look different than what is normally seen to include the skull and rune designs. A center band that sits quite a distance toward the middle going toward the tip of the scabbard rather than being located in the upper 1/3 of the shell. A sharp central blade spine that many post war examples exhibit. A motto that starts a considerable distance down the blade from the lower crossguard. I'm not nearly convinced on this example.

JR

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What JR said - plus. I'm also not sure that it's magnetic, because the blackish patination does not look like what nickel plating usually does when exposed to air for a long time. Thinking maybe east European, because I seem to recollect seeing this one or a very similar one to it a while back that I may have some images of for a comparison. FP

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I believe JR is right on the money with this one. It's a Type 1 & 2 combo, a bit of both... I personally see nothing I like about this chain. There have been a few of these appearing recently, seem to have take the place of the poor "Russian" fakes.

Red

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Gentleman
Gentleman
Thank you for your comments on what you see from the pictures.
I am told the chain is magnetic and this can be checked to be sure.
However I am a little confused on the other comments. I am told this dagger was on consignment some time ago with Mr.Whittmann for a healthy sum, it did not sell and was returned to the owner.
Question, If Whittmann looked it over and accepted it for sale, I would think it to be all original and according to the current owner Whittmann was the one that labeled it a 1st model.
Where do we go from here?????????????????
eek
thanks in advance for your reply's.
Added a couple pics of the skull chain link and the SS marking on one of the links.
michael

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The links that you now show are not the ones shown above with the dagger photos. Two completely different chains and it's obvious.

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Seems simple to me pick up the phone and ring Wittman to confirm the sellers story or otherwise but based on JR judgement/observations don't be surprised if Tom says he has never seen or heard of this dagger

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What is going on here? Why did you not spell it out up front and why new photos of a different dagger?

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Is this what you call the Twilight Zone ????? grin
I think Wittmann shoud know better and there are two different chained being showned here, what's the deal ?

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Gentleman
You are correct on the chain being different from the original posting to the added ones.
The first dagger set of pictures sent to me showing a close-up of the chain links and mark were blurry with no detail. So I ask for additional pictures and these were sent. I must be almost blind because the difference is quite evident.
I talked to MR. Wittmann and he did have a dagger from this owner but did not speak very highly of the owner.
I sent these pictures of this dagger to Tom to see if it is the same dagger he had and have not heard back as yet. Will advise what he says.
Looks to me as though the owner has two daggers and sent the wrong pictures of the links or there is something else going on here???
Michael

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Hi Michael, In any event you have DONE NOTHING WRONG...you are not advertising to sell or attempting to deceive someone...you are merely asking for help and assistance and opinions on an SS dagger...which used to be the purpose of this site years back...non aggressive info sharing...you are a new member and I welcome you to GDC...this matter will sort itself out and I am certain that Tom W will come through...cheers and regards, Ryan

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Originally Posted By: sellick8302@rogers.com
Hi Michael, In any event you have DONE NOTHING WRONG...you are not advertising to sell or attempting to deceive someone...you are merely asking for help and assistance and opinions on an SS dagger...which used to be the purpose of this site years back...non aggressive info sharing...you are a new member and I welcome you to GDC...this matter will sort itself out and I am certain that Tom W will come through...cheers and regards, Ryan

Thanks Ryan for the " Welcome "
As we all know this German collecting is a minefield and you better know your stuff or get out of collecting it. Well I thought this was the purpose of these Forums to try to help new collectors and compare notes and so on, but because of some members the Forums have become quite unstable-unpredictable and not so much trusted.
I would hope this is not the case here as it is on others.
I sent the same pictures as above to Mr. Whitmann. He replied "he saw nothing wrong with the dagger" which looked to be a 2nd type, however the close-ups of the skull link looked to be from a 1st type chain link as stated above.So it looks like we have some different opinions here on the 2nd type dagger?
I admit I got the pictures mixed up and I apologize for that screw-up, hope its the last mistake I ever make, yea sure.
I will try to get some pictures of the dagger to go along with the skull link pictures which are a 1st type chained and post them.
I think the owner has 2 daggers a 1st type and a 2nd type and he sent me the wrong close-up picture of the skull link.
Still seems to be a difference of opinion on the 2nd type chained dagger I listed above.
Now where do we go from here, is the dagger posted original or what? Forget the picture mix up.
thanks again
michael

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Well if you got Witty's stamp of approval.............. why would you need ours ?

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In my opinion whole dagger is a copy exept crossguards and scabbard shell. I have seen magnetic chains which are modern copies. This one is a far away from legit one.

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Originally Posted By: JR
Well if you got Witty's stamp of approval.............. why would you need ours ?

While I certainly have some "thoughts" whistle myself as regards this dagger, to help speed the discussion along here is a side by side from an old GDC discussion. With a steel "Type II" on the left, and a nickel silver example on the right. FP

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Hello Gents
Thanks for the info. I would not take any just one " person's opinion ".
Looks like the center one does not match the other 2. So it is different, correct.
Question was there only one dagger & chain manufacture of the type 1s and only one manufacture of the type 2s?
Just trying to learn here so no need to get huffy.
michael

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Originally Posted By: 1942collector
Question was there only one dagger & chain manufacture of the type 1s and only one manufacture of the type 2s? ...................

Michael,

There are three or four distinct types depending on how you look at them:

Type "X" in nickel silver with a nasal septum.
Type "II" in nickel silver.
Type "I" in steel with heavy nickel plating.
Type "II" in steel with light nickel plating. And perhaps a new set of dies to accommodate the change in materials.

FP

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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Originally Posted By: 1942collector
Question was there only one dagger & chain manufacture of the type 1s and only one manufacture of the type 2s? ...................

Michael,

There are three or four distinct types depending on you look at them:

Type "X" in nickel silver with a nasal septum.
Type "II" in nickel silver.
Type "I" in steel with heavy nickel plating.
Type "II" in steel with light nickel plating. And perhaps a new set of dies to accommodate the change in materials.

FP
There is also the solid sterling silver type that were on SS Chained Honor Daggers.( My favorite of all the TR daggers)I will have too have one of each.

Last edited by zorro; 07/19/2012 10:08 PM.

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There is still a lot to learn about the chains. The makers, the materials, the types, and what combinations of dagger+chain have been seen. I suspect that the manufacturers bought whatever chains they could get, just as I suspect that what we think to be different types might well be just die wear.

They there also field upgrade kits?

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If that is a fake/parts dagger then it shows how little I know (and I know that I know little). It looks real enough to me so just shows how careful you have to be.

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Hi, no one has yet said that the dagger in its entirety is fake, the chain appears suspect to some..regards

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There is a lack of period information with not just the SS, but many TR era daggers. With good information very difficult (or in some cases seemingly impossible) to find. But some of what we do know I think is that: In 1936 when HH announced them he set the price at RM 12.15, which was a price increase of about 40% over the standard M 1933 daggers. Which is the same price as listed in the SS-Kleiderkasse. Also being of the opinion that we can safely assume that the SS daggers were not for sale to the general public, but had to be purchased through official channels.

So in other words, the SS had a monopoly on the sales and distribution of the M 1936 daggers. Something that was outside the control of the RZM which had the ability to fix prices. And that if upgrade kits for the M 1933 daggers (or complete scabbards) were for sale separately. That in the period copies of the catalog that have been seen to date they do not seem to have been listed as such as items for sale.

PS to Zorro: Yes, I was remiss in not including the legitimate silver chain sets which are very few in number. Best Regards to All, Fred

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Gentleman
I want to thank you for all the inputs.
Guess we have a lot more to learn and probably will never always be able to say without a shadow of a doubt one way or the other.
Myself having a Engineering background am used to dealing with hard known "FACTS" and this approach may not be possible in dagger collecting.
I have received the pictures of the 1st model chained that goes with the skull links I posted in error, I will post pictures these for your inputs.
Thanks again
" trying to collect "
michael

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Originally Posted By: Dave Hohaus
There is still a lot to learn about the chains. The makers, the materials, the types, and what combinations of dagger+chain have been seen. I suspect that the manufacturers bought whatever chains they could get, just as I suspect that what we think to be different types might well be just die wear.

They there also field upgrade kits?



I was able to find photos of 5 different daggers with this “type” chain (They all have the distinctive notches on top of the SS runes).

Robert




Last edited by Robert T.; 07/21/2012 02:50 PM.
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WOW Robert
Now that's adding some comparison facts to the chain questions.
Shows there are same likes out there.
Perhaps some of the chain doubters should take a look.
Best regards
Michael

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I am not sure of what you are pointing out.I see a "Notch" of some kind on the close up of the SS link(Bottom,right I do not like the looks of it but it may be OK) but I do not think it is on all type 2 chain links.You also show 4 type 2 chains and one type 1 chain(Middle ,right side)

Last edited by zorro; 07/21/2012 03:35 PM.

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Originally Posted By: zorro
I am not sure of what you are pointing out.I see a "Notch" of some kind on the close up of the SS link(Bottom,right I do not like the looks of it but it may be OK) but I do not think it is on all type 2 chain links.You also show 4 type 2 chains and one type 1 chain(Middle ,right side)


Hi,

We can’t talk here of “type 1” or “type 2” because these (wartime or postwar) chains show a mixture of both types…

Some observed particularities:
* 4 non-magnetic chains (type 2)and 1 magnetic chain (type 1).
* Link connector cut-outs have sharp 90 degrees corners. (type 1)
* Link connectors to the wotan's knot are bevelled. (type 2)
* One dagger has a “type 2” scabbard center fitting, 4 daggers have “type 1” center fittings but the chain links and snap clips (with no "DRGM" marking) are the same.

Robert


Last edited by Robert T.; 07/21/2012 05:11 PM.
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The magnetic chain (harder material ?) show less wear to the skulls than the nickel silver examples.


Last edited by Robert T.; 07/21/2012 05:58 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Robert T.
The magnetic chain (harder material ?) show less wear to the skulls than the nickel silver examples.

Robert,What point are you trying to make? Both of the chains you show in the above post are fake.Again what are you trying to convey?


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Originally Posted By: Robert T.
The magnetic chain (harder material ?) show less wear to the skulls than the nickel silver examples.

Robert,

Yes, steel is harder than nickel silver which is (roughly) 2/3 copper. And inasmuch as you have already tracked down comparable examples for the thread starter, what I am interested in right now are the backsides, and the markings. So if you have any good images of that aspect, and of course any high resolution ones of the front not yet posted, I would be very appreciative.

Thanks, Fred

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Originally Posted By: zorro
Originally Posted By: Robert T.
The magnetic chain (harder material ?) show less wear to the skulls than the nickel silver examples.

Robert,What point are you trying to make? Both of the chains you show in the above post are fake.Again what are you trying to convey?


What kind of hard facts do you offer to prove they are fake????
Michael

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Originally Posted By: 1942collector
............... I have received the pictures of the 1st model chained that goes with the skull links I posted in error, I will post pictures these for your inputs. Thanks again " trying to collect " michael

Michael,

Any additional pictures that you have are also welcome. Which includes of course any from the thread starter that might not as yet been posted.

Thanks, Fred

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Hello Fred
I posted the pictures of the type 1 as a new post " chained SS type 1 " today at 2:10 my time, check them out. This is the one I am interested in buying and has the skull link that I posted in this posting by mistake, the owner had 2 daggers.
Perhaps I should have posted them in this posting.

Michael

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Originally Posted By: 1942collector
Originally Posted By: zorro
Originally Posted By: Robert T.
The magnetic chain (harder material ?) show less wear to the skulls than the nickel silver examples.

Robert,What point are you trying to make? Both of the chains you show in the above post are fake.Again what are you trying to convey?


What kind of hard facts do you offer to prove they are fake????
Michael
I have nothing to prove that is my opinion.


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Originally Posted By: Fred Prinz - FP
Yes, steel is harder than nickel silver which is (roughly) 2/3 copper. And inasmuch as you have already tracked down comparable examples for the thread starter, what I am interested in right now are the backsides, and the markings. So if you have any good images of that aspect, and of course any high resolution ones of the front not yet posted, I would be very appreciative.

Thanks, Fred


Hi fred,

Thank you for your interest, if you give me your email address, I will send you the pics of one of the dagger that I copied from a dealer's website.

Cheers,
Robert

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Hello Zorro
What do you base your "opinion" on?
You must have some factual basis to say you think they are fake or why would you say that. Thought we were trying to determine something here, this is not a beauty contest.

thanks
michael

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Michael , do yourself a favor and do NOT buy the dagger that started this thread . The chain , which mimics a type II is post war . JMO

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