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#267473 07/09/2012 08:42 PM
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Just acquired one in field grey and am not sure what I have. No doubt the cloth skull on the front is good and I think it's likely the eagle on the side is, too. It was principally for the insignia I bought it. But, I am curious about the cap itself. It has a single button for the flaps, which also appears "right." The wool looks like the reprocessed stuff from late in the war. There are no "pull-down" straps on the insides of the ear flaps. The lining is a hideous lime green cotton and is stamped "SS-BW." I know such stampings are controversial, but don't know the full story there. Comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

Grumpy #267475 07/09/2012 09:44 PM
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hi Grumpy,,,pics are worth a thousand words...more or less...please post pics..

militarymania #267545 07/11/2012 06:20 AM
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Can you post some pictures so we can judge?


Fred



"Panzer vorwärts!"
Fred Fokkelman #267559 07/11/2012 04:00 PM
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I'll try, Fred. Have been busy with other things. Will try to get pics up tomorrow, no later than Saturday. I discovered the upper, forward part of the lining has been opened and re-sewn, apparently to attach or replace the skull. The replacement thread glows under black light, but nothing else does. The single button looks like the pressed paper type. I suspect this is a quality reproduction cap, or a leftover cap (possibly postwar assembled) that has had the insignia added. There is also a metal "mountain troops" device sewn next to the eagle that looks brand-new, possibly a repro. As I said earlier, the skull is a known authentic one. The eagle looks good, but I'm not sure. The eagle is BEVO and the skull is the woven type, but not the thicker cotton variety. One way or another, it looks like a "put-together" cap, but I don't want to "mess with it" until I know more about it. Thanks for the interest to you both.

Grumpy #267762 07/15/2012 08:46 PM
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Sorry for the delay. Here are some pics. The skull is a bit distorted, due to folds in it and the cap.

m43 skull & button 001 (2) (Medium).jpg (55.3 KB, 139 downloads)
m43 skull & button 001 (3) (Medium).jpg (119.88 KB, 140 downloads)
M43 Front (Medium).jpg (73.63 KB, 139 downloads)
M43 003 (Medium).jpg (69.81 KB, 139 downloads)
M43 002 (2) (Medium).jpg (86.33 KB, 139 downloads)
Grumpy #267763 07/15/2012 08:47 PM
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More photos coming. Need to do some resizing.

Grumpy #267764 07/15/2012 08:52 PM
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More pics...

m43 bw (Medium) (Small).jpg (75.09 KB, 137 downloads)
m43 (Medium) (Small).jpg (26.88 KB, 137 downloads)
M43 004 (Medium) (Small).jpg (92.04 KB, 137 downloads)
m43 eagle (Small).jpg (27.83 KB, 136 downloads)
m43 eagle (2) (Small).jpg (52.35 KB, 136 downloads)
Grumpy #267776 07/16/2012 02:13 AM
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I dont like this one,,eagle looks fake to me,,has an Army style edelweiss,,,Skull may be good,,,SS BW marking I heard exits,but I have never seen one or the mint green interior,,,I too would like to hear from our more experienced SS headgear collectors...

militarymania #267812 07/16/2012 10:40 PM
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Found a couple of eagles in the Beaver-Shea "SS" headgear book that appear to match this one. The skull is well established as an authentic style in a number of references. The burning question now is the authenticity of the cap itself. I expected more input by now and would appreciate same. I need to know whether to leave the cap "as is," or remove the insignia. Thanks.

Grumpy #267827 07/17/2012 02:51 AM
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The eidelweisse is post war 50's or later.


"Insanity is heriditary. You get it from your kids." Quote from Ronald Regans diary.
SteveRay #267829 07/17/2012 03:20 AM
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I thought it looked like s repro from the start, but it is a minor factor. Thanks for the input.

SteveRay #267904 07/18/2012 08:24 PM
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I have my doubts too. Don't like the eagle The lining is not uncommon, but the green looks too bright. I would rather see a size stamp than the SS BW stamp. In all, we have a single button
cap, with front skull (looks ok) an eagle at the flap, edelweiss and SS BW stamp. In my humble opinion too good to be true. I would pass, but that's my opinion.


Fred



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Fred Fokkelman #267911 07/18/2012 09:17 PM
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Thanks, Fred. It's already bought, for a pittance. I can see doubt about the eagle, but I have found ones that appear identical in the book noted above, I have no doubt about the skull being authentic. The edelweiss has been suspect from the start. The cap itself, I'm still unsure of. To handle it, it seems okay, but it could be a very good repro. I would think it odd that a "reproducer" would use such a lining in order to deceive, but who knows? I bought it mainly for the skull, but don't want to remove everything, except the edelweiss, if the cap is authentic. If it is,I suspect it was put together postwar, but I would preserve it "as is" if the cap is good.

Grumpy #267920 07/18/2012 11:22 PM
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I would have bought the hat for a pittance as well,,I would remove the skull/eagle and leave the edelweiss...

militarymania #267996 07/20/2012 12:27 AM
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I hate to be the bringer of bad news here , but IMHO both cloth insignia are reproductions .
The eagle is easy enough because of the penguin feet , the skull is one of the better made types , but I think not a good one .
Here's the same set of repro insignia :

Screenshot - 20-7-2012 , 1_23_36.jpg (49.13 KB, 94 downloads)
Winkelman #267997 07/20/2012 12:31 AM
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And here's the ORIGINAL of the version it mimmicks . Thought it would be best to tell this , it's a tricky one ..

Screenshot - 20-7-2012 , 1_16_57.jpg (38.93 KB, 92 downloads)
Last edited by Winkelman; 07/20/2012 12:35 AM.
Winkelman #267999 07/20/2012 12:33 AM
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Please compare :

Screenshot - 20-7-2012 , 1_32_41.jpg (31.48 KB, 90 downloads)
Winkelman #268017 07/20/2012 04:08 AM
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second skull insignia looks like a "squash head"..

militarymania #268021 07/20/2012 05:02 AM
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It is squashed.

Grumpy #268117 07/21/2012 09:10 PM
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Maybe it's just me, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I can see no appreciable differences in the skull Winkelman posted and mine. Mine does appear distorted in the photos, due to folds in the cap and the skull itself. Here is an unsewn skull of the type on the M43, looking as it should, without the distortion. It appears identical to the one on the cap.

skull alone (Medium).jpg (46.24 KB, 60 downloads)
Grumpy #268118 07/21/2012 09:15 PM
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Here are some insignia seen on SS fez examples from "The Collector's Guide to the Distinctive Cloth Headgear of the Allgemeine and Waffen-SS" by Michal D. Beaver and William Shea, p. 291. Again, I can see no difference in these skulls and the M43 one. If there is are significant differences, please point them out.

fez skull (Small).jpg (28.95 KB, 106 downloads)
fez skull (2) (Medium).jpg (107.5 KB, 106 downloads)
fez skull (3) (Small).jpg (50.54 KB, 105 downloads)
Last edited by Grumpy; 07/21/2012 09:16 PM.
Grumpy #268121 07/21/2012 09:20 PM
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As to the eagle, most, where I looked, do have three talons on each foot. However, I have found several with no feet at all and one or two with two talons. Most were seen in the same referenced book, but a few were viewed elsewhere. As to the one on this M43, I don't know if it is authentic or not, but I have a hard time dismissing it as fake, based on the feet alone.

Grumpy #268141 07/22/2012 02:14 AM
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Hello grumpy ,
first of all let me say I'm pleased to see we may differ in opinion in a civilized matter - I've seen very differently in my time discussing these insignia .
That being said , I do believe there are differences that can be made out , they are very subtle indeed - but consistent .
Here's a picture from Traders of the lost surplus where these repro's were on offer ( $ 7.50 ), unfortunately I have not been able to secure one for research purposes , but do have dozens of pics of THIS type alone , taken from various discussions ( always deemed to be bad ) - and own an original of the type it mimmicks .
It is No. 2043H from picture shown , the other 2 are more easily identified ..

Screenshot - 22-7-2012 , 2_54_57.jpg (72.12 KB, 90 downloads)
Winkelman #268142 07/22/2012 02:30 AM
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I'll try to make a picture myself to point out the differences , but untill then , here's one from the archives ( a discussion at Wehrmacht Awards Forum , picture by Viva Giulio ) .
Green being Original , Red Repro .
It does show very well the difference in WEAVE to begin with , originals of this type having a more ribbed structure ) The shape of the left eye is significant as well .
See line No. 1 : on a repro the white inside line touches the upper rim , also the repro has a perfect oval shaped left eye , instead of a small pointed bit at the bottom .
No. 5 : question mark shaped end to line on repro , sharp square hook on original .
No.6 : 2 small points sticking out into the white of jaw of repro .
This is indeed the hardest type cloth skull to identify , but I believe all of these ( small ! ) differences to be consistent , i.e. all the originals show features the repro's do not .
So for now :

Screenshot - 22-7-2012 , 3_28_29.jpg (90.84 KB, 88 downloads)
Winkelman #268144 07/22/2012 02:54 AM
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One more detail I'd like to add myself - pointed out on a repro .
This piece of line is always LONGER on an original , please compare .
Sorry to say that nowadays the determination of originals has come to " stitchcounting " like this ( which is still possible with BeVo insignia ), but this type is one of the best repro's so far .
Collectors of Bullion insignia ( handmade ! ) are having an even harder time ..

Screenshot - 22-7-2012 , 3_47_14.jpg (54.17 KB, 83 downloads)
Winkelman #268145 07/22/2012 03:08 AM
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P.S. the last picture on the previous page ( laid flat without distortion ) is that type of repro too - the one on the Fez is original .
ALL details mentioned are to be seen there - hope this helps ..
Trust me when I say I find no pleasure whatsoever in pointing this out , but we are all here to learn .
Myself , I've lost track with the latest reproductions of helmet decals , and had my share of pain because of this . Others may not even have to look twice telling good from bad ..

Winkelman #268148 07/22/2012 05:01 AM
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I have no problem at all in finding out new information about these things. But, I can see slight differences in the two of the four photos with the green dots. Also, I am curious as to why and how the ones deemed to be reproductions are reproductions. I see the subtle differences noted, but could the differences not be due to a different machine or template of the same design? It would be interesting to learn what makes them reproductions and not originals. Is it only because the patterns are similar, but not exactly the same? I would note the dealer repros you show, particularly the middle skull, are similar, but not identical to the one in question. Compare the number of teeth in the two. The camo repro appears to have far fewer teeth and they are more square- off than on the other skull.

Last edited by Grumpy; 07/22/2012 05:19 AM.
Grumpy #268187 07/22/2012 05:51 PM
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Good thread.
Steve


"Insanity is heriditary. You get it from your kids." Quote from Ronald Regans diary.
SteveRay #268204 07/22/2012 11:16 PM
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To rule out an original variation is exactly why I would like to get one of those Traders repro's No.2043H .. ! I do believe it is the insignia in question - it has the false left eye characteristics , and the short line on the right temple . As far as the teeth go , this may be due to pixelation , picture used is a cutout blowup .
2046B ( camo ) and 2045D are indeed a different type of repro , and fortunately not as good .

But most importantly - as far as I know , the skull discussed has not ever turned up on any woodwork finds . Like e.g. the many Fezzes that make for excellent reference - and on which all other types can be found .
They do however turn up frequently on repro headgear ..

Screenshot - 23-7-2012 , 0_12_23.jpg (51.11 KB, 40 downloads)
Winkelman #268208 07/22/2012 11:53 PM
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No doubt, the camo one is very similiar to the one in question. I hope you can obtain an example. I don't think they are identical, but, it could be the quality of the photo. Not seeing one on an original cap is a good argument. But, there could be other factors, such as leftover and unissued stock. I'm not trying to "defend" this skull, but I will note it is very well made and is of high quality. The thread feels like silk. It also has no black light glow, for what that's worth. Of course, fakers have cleverly duplicated so much insignia, this could be the proverbial "high quality reproduction."

Last edited by Grumpy; 07/22/2012 11:55 PM.

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