UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS- marked Police NCO sword

I picked this up about a month ago. This is my first SS marked police sword. The scabbard retains about 85% of the original paint and the upper fitting has about 50% of the burnishing left in the diamonds. The black wooden handle has no cracks or chips. This is also my first police sword with a nickle plated blade...and it's almost perfect. From what I've read, these SS stamped swords belonged to dual membership policeman being also in the SS.

Rich

No runes on the pommel cap? I had one made by Krebs with the runes on the pommel cap and their much harder to find than the standard SS NCO sword.

I agree, Dow Cross. Usually, when a police degen, officer and other ranks, is said to have belonged to a policeman who was also an SS member, the pommel cap will display SS runes. The markings on the hilt here are so-called "proofmarks," most often seen on earlier SS officer and NCO swords and police officer swords. I don't see why they would indicate dual police-SS membership, without the runes on the cap, and not heard of such, but there's always something to be learned.

Grumpy, you are correct. The SS Schutzmark has nothing to do with SS membership of the owner of the sword. Some NCO swrods were provided to lower rank NCOs from inventories. Check out the chapter in TW's book where this is explained.

I'm not too sure myself and only know what I read. I read this on Tom Johnson's site and another site. The one on Johnson's site has no indication of the SS runes on the pommel cap in the pictures or the description.

http://www.johnsonreferencebooks.com/catalogue/weapons/SWORDS/police/27330.htm


This was taken from Tom Wittmann's site.

"This NCO degen comes complete with its original SS portepee. When we see an SS portepee on a police piece it simply means that the original owner was in the SS as well as the police."

This NCO/police sword also has no SS Runes on the pommel cap, just the SS "proofmarks". Item #9 in the police sword section.

Rich

True. The WKC period catalogue helps here because it offers a pommel with runic SS symbol for police officers/NCOs' who are also SS members.

Is their an authorization by a leader to have the runes put on the pommel cap or is this something that is put together by the sword smiths as Joe W has mentioned. Nice sword Rich!! I would have to stand on a small ladder to take a sword picture like that,,as i could not crop the sword in the photo to make it look nice. Good Job! Larry

I attach a scan of the WKC page that shows that pommel with SS runic emblem can be supplied by them on request. I would agree that some form of SS/Police authorisation would be required to prove entitlement.

I wouldn't think it was a requirement that "dual membership" members have the pommel with runes. I would think it was an option. It's not unheard of to see a police officer or police NCO sword with an SS portepee or "knot," but no marked pommel cap, It's also possible such portepees were added, in some cases, postwar.

The Old Brigade has two such swords for sale...here is one of them.
http://www.theoldbrigade.co.uk/viewphoto.php?x=4

Rich, it is difficult to separate facts from fantasy in advertisements. I can see why you are confused. But I would rely on Tom Wittmann's explanation which is consistent with the explanation of the "SS proof mark" found in the chapter on SS-Police swords in his book "Exploring the Dress Daggers and Swords of the German SS". I assisted Tom in writing this chapter and beginning on page 477 the "SS proof mark" is fully explained that it has no connection to SS membership. He also wrote that a policeman's membership in the SS could be evidenced by requesting an SS runic pommel as shown on the WKC advertisement that Barry posted. It was an option like Grumpy points out. Even wearing the SS runic patch on the police uniform was an option for policemen as explained in my article "Wearin' of the Runes" in a past Bender "The Military Advisor" issue.

If you are interested in these matters I would advise you to invest in a copy of Wittmann's book.

Proof of entitlement required? "Required" perhaps, should the option to purchase a police degen with the runic pommel be the personal choice of an SS member, which I guess was the marketing intention of WKC, i.e., to offer that choice. Agreed, no Police regulation/requirement for SS members to have the runic decorated pommel. Agreed, wear of the SS portepee on the police degen where the SS member has not been awarded the SS-Ehrendegen by RFSS was covered in Police regulations . Agree about post war fakery, i.e., post war embellishment of police swords with SS portepees and/or faked runic decoration on police pommel nuts.

Joe W,

Thank you for your clarification. I do already have the book but have not read it cover to cover yet. At the time of purchase I didn't own any police or SS swords. I will take your advice and turn to page 477 and check it out.

Thank you everyone for your input, as this is a hobby I will continue to learn at from the knowledgeable members of this forum.

Rich

As stated the runes stamp on police swords has nothing to do with SS membership but has to do with the designer of the sword. Some makers opted to apply this stamp while others did not. Some placed it on both D guard and throat while others, such as WKC, applied it larger form without box on the blade. Still others applied it only on the D guard or throat.

OK. But where does it say that in any period documentation? Here is a link to a 12 page discussion in 2008 (and later) with some actual period information as to what it was called with some additions to the list where the mark was used. FP

SS Kulturzeichen - plus

I should have said the design of the sword or item. SS approved design. The question remains why identical items sometimes are stamped and sometimes not. However, as I said ,it seems to relate to a manufacturers' option as one can see by examining various swords with different TM,s.

It gets stranger than that. Just about everything from the Allach factory at Dachau got the marking, sometimes with the artist's name as a credit. But the Dachau swords made just across the way??? Not that I have seen. FP

I've posted this before, several years ago. Again, apologies for the bad pics but felt it aproppriate for the topic.

Denny, All contributions welcome. Fred