UBB.threads Forums General Interest Community Center Have daggers,swords,etc hit rock bottom???

I have noticed that the sales on this forum have really hit rock bottom or it it true everywhere??I always try to price my items below the dealers. But when you can hardly sell nice Army, Luft and sa daggers for $400.00 It makes you wonder what is going on. The HJ knives have really taken a turn for the worst.I do a lot of hotel buys,but try and buy these items from the veterans or their family members, and they look at you like you are crazy if you do not offer at least $400 a piece. Swords have also taken a beating try selling a nice sword for $400, no way.
But yet the Toms, Brians ,Jasons,Craig, have these insane prices, are they truly selling or not??Why would anyone in their right mind cart these items to each show and never reduce their prices.
The economy has really taken a hit on the collectibles, especially the common items, if it is mint or rare you have a chance on getting a reasonable price.
Iam like a lot of you guys, i have a nice collection of 43 years, and hate to see the prices go down the drain.
Hopefully we do not have a "beany baby" situation here, I remember when they got as high as a $1,000, now you cannot even give them away.Guess Iam just letting off steam on a Saturday afternoon.
Thanks
Bob

I think it's pretty much the same all over. People are scared, due to the economy and many have put their collecting "on hold." Plus, many would take a "hit" financially if they sold their collectibles, so they don't want to take a chance in buying new stuff, only to have the same thing happen. The "investment" aspect of collecting has nosedived. Most do not collect for investment purposes, but the financial consideration is a part of it for most. I have tries to sell some very nice items here and elsewhere for truly bargain prices, just to trim my collection, all significantly below prices found elsewhere, with no buyers. Some seem to feel "safer" buying from established and well-known dealers, even though they usually pay considerably more. Such is their privilege, of course, but many nice items and true bargains are missed by limiting yourself to that. Some have longtime relationships with dealers and find it easier to buy from them, perhaps getting discounts as loyal customers. The answer to the current situation? I don't think there is one right now. I'm not convinced we will see the prices that peaked some time ago, except, perhaps, for the rarer items. But those items have a limited market. Only a relatively small group of collectors can afford and want to spend large amounts on the scarcer, highly desirable collectibles. Most "advanced" and "near advanced" collectors have acquired the basics, so there is little reaction on the more common items. For now, we can only sit tight and wait and see. I believe the key, in great part, is the economy and employment. If those get energized, we hopefully will see collecting interest pick up.

the stuff on most dealers sites is 3-4 years old now very little is moving and of course it is taboo to lower prices by most if not all the dealers so it sits

These are the reasons that I collect for fun and if I ever have to sell breaking even would be just fine.

i agree with Grumpy, its the economy with the average collector and the exchange rate with the oversea buyers.

Grumpy is right the common army-luft etc is not selling very well but the minty or rare variation stuff does sell. I am still buying but only early slant grip army’s and select waffenrock. Definitely a tuff sell at the moment unless you have something special condition wise or rarity wise.

And, don't forget that some of the pieces that linger can be there on consignment where the seller essentially sets the price. If the guy wants too much, the piece sits unless he wakes up and agrees to reduce the price. Some dealers identify items that are on consignment, but many do not. No harm in asking a dealer if that is his best price or, if it is on consignment, could he contact the owner and see if he'd let it go for less.

Exchange rates for the Euro and Pound are advantageous, but the Canadian $ is about = to the US$. Most world economies are down and many folks think it is best to keep their cash in their pocket unless a super piece comes up. "Average" or even "Nice" items, particularly of common types of daggers, are not selling.

Big dealer vs Internet seller? As Grumpy laments, the dealers with good reputations make out better. They are known, they have tables at bigger shows, they have set policies about returns, they (mostly) have web sites, and they are people you can talk to. That translates to high price realization for them. This applies to all collectibles and most used items.

Dave

I say hold onto your hard earned cash for awhile longer, prices are in decline and will continue to drop. The big dealers with over inflated prices, their days are numbered as well,imo.

The COMMON daggers swords in my opinion have been over priced for some years...I could not believe how the prices jumped on the common stuff.. The so so condition stuff nicked blades etc. are HARD TO SELL and the price MUST reflect this otherwise it sits....... The rare nice stuff has ALWAYS been FUN to collect and it can be easy to sell if priced in (reality)!!!.. I'm not worried about the (hobby)at all I believe there is a price adjustment on the common overpriced stuff.. In the old days The Toms and a few other dealers always asked 30% to 40% more than other dealers why? (Because they could and they had nice stuff..).It seems now MANY (not all) dealers and collectors price there goods at there levels and beyond..There is also a few high-end upstart dealers that have insane prices (but they seem to have a very limited circle) and probably do not care if they sell anything..By no means I'm not one of the older collectors but been collecting since the mid 70s and I have seen many cycles and trends and the RARE, REAL!!! stuff always sells if priced in the ballpark.
I'm still a active collector who is not into quantity, but into rarity and quality......Regards:

Yes, I agree the rarer items and the mint common items will always bring a premium. I had a table at the SOS show, did very well, because i was willing to drop my prices. I would rather sell everything on the table , and start off the next show with a fresh batch of items.The high end dealers strive to get those high prices, but it is a proven fact you can generate more money, by being reasonable at get the item down the road.This goes for all items not just daggers.
I sold a exc++ Teno leaders dagger for $5500, yet I saw them at the show for $7500-$10,000, with no hangers.But in the long run, I would rather make a little money then to keep taking it back and forth to every show.I know that I do have an advantage over the dealers , most of my items(95%)comes from veterans or their families, so my profit margin does not have to be that great.
Thanks
Bob

Are how well the fakes being turn out and/or who can agree what is exactly genuine influencing the market conditions on top of the bad economy?

bg - Over the past two decades I have purchased some very nice items from you, and ALWAYS at prices that were more than fair. I have also followed your ebay offerings for quite a while and it seems you are able to sell most everything you post there. Some things have reached bid prices that simply amaze me how high they go (particularly two Japanese nco swords you had on there recently).
So it makes me wonder about the venue in which items are offered. The exposure to prospective buyers with ebay vs any other site or show is massive in comparison. Since ebay wont allow TR items, sellers are denied that site as an outlet for their goods, and I do think that has an impact.
And how many younger potential collectors are totally turned off by the ridiculous and greedy prices demanded by the majority of dealers one finds online now? I put together a decent collection (in large part thanks to your reasonable prices) back in the mid 80s and 90s and it cost me maybe a few thousand. Today that dollar amount would barely get me a couple daggers. So how many of those "younger new" potential collectors are not even considering entering this area of collecting due to the inflated prices? Is the greed literally killing off the live blood infusion of the hobby i.e. the new and more limited pocketbook collector? Methinks perhaps yes it is.
bg - Greed is not a word that you have ever been associated nor ever will be with as far as I am concerned. So at least you can sleep well at night knowing you are a fair and honest man. And I personally thank you for being exactly that. As for the others, perhaps they should look in the mirror and think about what they really do to this hobby and just how much of their soul they sell for the almighty dollar.

my highest regards to you

I will fork over the dough for minty or rare items, at the max show my buying was limited as there was not much mint blades to go around, i agree the ex+ blades need a price adjustment,

So when it comes time to sell your collection we should expect to see your items being sold at well below market value?

Ah Yes, the good ole days of e-bay, when you could list TR items. You had a much larger venue, I remember getting some crazy prices, because someone just had to have it. But then again you could also get some deals.
I think one of the reasons the prices have gone so high in te last 10 years, is the internet. The average non-collector comes into one of my hotel buys and has seen this particular item on the internet ,dagger, sword, medal, helmet ,etc and wants the same price, and of course the high end dealers have always been high so that is where they get their informtaion. I have to pay more all the time just to buy something.
I end up selling a lot of my common daggers,etc, at low prices just to make them go away.It is almost impossible to buy common daggers,etc at a decent price, directly from the vet source, so a lot of it i have to let walk away.
Yes, the internet has been good and bad.
If i could list TR items on e-bay, they would go on there, except the items i keep for my own collection.
Thanks
Bob

I wont be selling my collection, my son will most likely though after I am gone as he has little interest in military historical items. And he will know what I paid for each item when I got it as keep a record. So it will be his choice as to what he asks for it.

Not to argue about this, but anyone can try and justify continually jacking up prices and using the term "market price" as though someone obscure entity decides what that is. Cars arent worth $40,000 either just because they add the retired worker's pensions to the price. That doesnt make my car work better or increase it's value to me.

Weak analogy I know but the best I can do ATM. And I tend to think that the only people who would defend such practices are those who profit by it. I dont really care how much what I own is worth anyway, I didnt buy it to sell it. And I didnt begin my love of history as a child with the intent to make money from it.

By continually escalating the prices of artifacts, the younger generations will and likely are simply going to skip the hobby altogether as it's too costly. When I was a young fellow I bought things like bayonets or helmets in pawn shops etc for a few dollars. That enriched my appreciation of the history and my reading about it immensely. But now what? Even an Army dagger costs a week's pay for many people. Who can afford to buy these items now? The price hikers are killing the golden goose because they are driving potential new collectors (and older ones as well)away. Simple as that IMO.

BTW this isnt only in TR items,I collect various time periods and nations. The Civil War sector is equally ridiculous.

my regards WW2 - Collector - and I love Army daggers too!

It's not just the big greedy dealers causing this, but also the families of the veterans are seeing shows like Pawnstars, Roadshow, etc. and becoming more educated (which is both good and bad). They type in "German dagger" into google and this site comes up, and Snyders treasures comes up in the first 10 hits and his first items is a $35,000 sa dagger. How do we compete with that? I had a lady come in with 100 pages of info on a number assault badge she had, she knew more about it than I did!

As BG said, I cannot buy a common dagger off the street for under $400, and yet now I can't sell one for more than that!
3 years ago we were paying 500-600 and selling at 700-800 then the market crashed and we were stuck with $600 daggers we couldn't sell at $500.

We try to cut new collectors deals on things, give away freebies, share our reference books, and allow them to upgrade with full credit on what they paid.

I think things will pick up when the economy picks up. Everything is soft, daggers, helmets, badges, US Civil War, etc. Half of my "regular" customers lost their jobs 3 years ago, several have retired. when the choice is daggers or rent, rent usually wins.

I also think prices will go up again when the economy picks up. I think there will allways be a demand for quality edged weapons from past times. But when the time comes mint slant gripped early heer daggers are offered for sale for $250 a piece, I'll buy atleast 20 of them

Danny

I also think it will come back, but not to the level we saw just before the crash of 2008. The excitement and novelty of the internet plus the emergence of easy credit contributed to the high prices IMHO. I don't think we can count on these factors anymore.

And yet, dealers were saying that these were "investment", what a laugh.
I'm also pretty convinced that prices will pick up again but nowhere to their levels prior 2008. There are also fewer people collecting that kind fo stuff and the new generation don't really care about WWII history. Just go to the Max and SOS show and you will see it for yourself, most collector are well over 50's and there doesn't seem to be any new blood. Yet, you always hear about those dealers claiming that they had their "best show ever", needless to say that it has to be taken very lightly. Of course, it wouldn't be a good marketing strategy to say that business is slow. There are even couple of dealers that keeps on saying on their web page, " great investment potential ", these are the one's that are still sleeping or just plain stupid.

I think most are missing the point, the prices won't go up as they have never gone down, show me a dealer site where the pricing has reflected the economy. The only folks selling stuff are those entrepreneurs selling on the forums privately and moving their surplus or collections at reasonable prices

Actualy Bill Shea has slashed alot of his prices over at the Ruptured Duck, Great dealer by the way. I think the mint mint mint stuff is hard to find even at rediculus prices, its just the guy at the flea markets mint is different than our mint, he sees one of the toms websights selling a mint army for 1k, the flea market guycalls his mint when in actuality it is only ex because of graying and rust and chipped grip

I can understand the dealers have to make a profit, when I buy from my hotel buys, i also want to pay for the ads, and make something. But there is one dealer which I shall only use his intials BM, whose prices are bordering on the absurd, actually he insults are intelligence with his prices. I do not know who buys from him because you can buy the same item for 70% less then what he charges.But if he can get those prices then good for him.
The old theory is that you can make more money, by turning the item over cheaper and sell more.

I don't know if I'm what you would call the "younger new" collecter being in my early 40's and only really collecting for the last 4 or so years. I know in my situation that I couldn't really afford but maybe 1 SA a year. But over the last couple years I've been fortinate anough (better job) to be able to buy more. Granted I wish it was higher end stuff but i'm content with the daggers I,ve picked up so far (2 SA,1 mini 2nd luft)in the last month. I try to look at all the sites and forms for some sort of price range and I must say that Robert seems like he is more level headed on his prices. Unfortunately I tend to be a little slow on the draw and someone else gets the good deal before me. Out here in Oregon it seems like slim pickins to find WII (german) items. Not that I haven't looked. The stuff I do find is so worked over and over priced (like it's the only one they have ever seen)I just shake my head and walk away. All I can say is keep putting your stuff up and there is someone out there looking for that one item. (P.S. not just on this forum shopping, I try to read all the new threads everyday. HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH MORE)

Brian

This is a very interesting thread. I too have seen a drop off in prices and the high end dealers with the 12 and 15 hundred dollar Army's can afford to keep them at that price because they have already earned their money. The smaller dealers have to lower their prices in order to stay in business and keep food on the table.

It will all come full circle and everyone will be fat and happy again with crazy prices. It won't be tomorrow or next month or even next year but it will return.

To me it's like the stock market. It has it's ups, downs, rock bottoms, and glory days, but it does eventually recover...and like the best stock market advice anyone will ever tell you, buy low and sell high. With that advice, now's the time to buy these good priced daggers because in a few years we'll be looking back kicking ourselves wondering why we didn't.

Rich

Nice bike Pitbull,I cant see exactly what it is from the size of your picture though. I'm really itching to get out and do some serious riding and we have had some great warm days already this spring.

I should like to give an example of what I consider to a person who DOESNT try to squeeze every last cent out of people and out of the items he acquires.

I have a longtime friend who lives about 15 miles south of me. He is in his mid 60s and he has had two shops in two different buildings he owns for over 40 years. One is an antique shop and the other is a militaria/gun shop. Over the years some wonderful things have walked through his door and he has kept the ones he wants for himself and sold the rest.

His knowledge of history is remarkable and he has rows of books and reference material. He knows about most any time period imcluding Asian, African, and Arabic artifacts, and the armies and weapons etc that go with it. I would say he is a true historian, unlike some who use that term very loosely, and he has mentored me for 30 years. He is always happy to share his knowledge and teach regardless of whether someone buys anything from him or not.

A few weeks ago the daughter of a retired Sergeant Major came in. He had passed away a few years ago and now she wanted to sell off ALL of his military items. So my friend ends up buying this man's uniforms, medals, everything she had related to his military service, which must have spanned a very long time. Sad to see this happen to a man's life certainly but that's another story and not an uncommon one.

Included among the items were an early Holler Army and an Eickhorn Derflinger sword. Both in what I would call an actual near mint condition. He estimated that he paid about $400 for the pair as part of the entire lot she sold to him. Next day he called me and asked if I wanted any of the items. I bought the Army for $350 and the sword for $300. So he made $250 in profit on the two blades within a couple days. BTW I didnt buy them to resell as I am not a dealer.

This guy has a computer and he visits the websites from time to time, so he is not ignorant of what others are pricing their inventories at. Could he have tried to get as much as $1500 for the pair online or in his shop out of them? More even perhaps? Of course. But he does not. He chooses only to make a FAIR and REASONABLE profit. And he does not see the items simply as $$$ in his pocket.

So to all of you "dealers" out there, the next time you are fortunate enough to acquire an artifact for a very good price, perhaps YOU might think about how many 100 percent you are going to try and squeeze out of it. Is 100% enough? 200 ? 500? 1000? Are you content with a fair and reasonable profit or do you go for the absolute maximum everytime? How much do you really care about helping other collectors in this hobby or is it that you really dont give a damn 'cause it's all about the money.

And please dont try to exonerate yourself by saying that you are helping everyone by sharing your great knowledge about the subtle color variations of a dagger handle while at the same time you are trying to overcharge by ridiculous amounts. People arent stupid, they can recognise pure greed when they see it.

I'm not saying that ALL dealers are like this, but if the shoe fits..............

Pitbull, I agre with you on this beening like the stock market. Every week when I return to work the guys I work with ask if I have bought any new daggers. I just tell them that I'm diversifing my portfolio in german WII artifacts.LOL But I also live by Roy's beleaf, if I see something that I want I'm going fork out the money for it.

I personally agree with Pitbull. From the long term collector's standpoint, as with the stockmarkets, it is time in the market that counts.

To me all leading indicators in the hobby are pointing down with no upturn to be seen. Sure the fat cats will pay big bucks but they didn't get fat by being stupid.Why pay 1K for an SA when the guy next to him only wants to pay 3 to 4 hundred for the same dagger. Stunning,gem quality,screamer,stellar,out of the weeds,rare,mint-mint-mint,and investment grade descriptions are irrelevant. The average collector is forced to get more bang for his buck and across the board they are pretty smart crew. The dollar now has value.
The big dealers will resist adjusting their prices because they have made huge profits over the years. I feel that a restructuring of prices will bring the collectors back to the tables.
I realize that the current economic condition is hard on sellers but the collector also suffers because his collection can become devalued. Hopefully better times are comming for all involved in the hobby.

When the economy goes down the first thing that gets hit is the collectibles market; people are worried more about putting food on the table and purchasing other staple essentials. However, in any economy there are always the few that can afford to buy and I'm sure the well established dealers are still gleaning sales despite upping their prices. Similarly I've also witnessed on eBay ridiculously high opening bids on pieces of poor condition. IMO there still appears to be a lot of interest in the hobby but it may be difficult to determine exactly what factors are driving sales.

Gentlemen,

You've established a great many valid, insightful points about the position of our hobby and world economics in general. I think a 'state-of-torpor' would be an apt description that covers where we currently stand ... for better or worse we're in this mess together and have to make the best out of a pretty miserable situation.

Inflations, recessions, double-recessions, no raises, no money, no jobs ... to what future? I don't think there are any 'quick-fixes' left in our bag of tricks, it seems our world leaders are as flummoxed as the rest. There seems to be no alternative except to play the hand and see what happens..?

Though the future may be uncertain, I say play on mates, play on! Sure it's hard to collect on limited funds and it's definitely not 'business as usual' anymore. But have faith, true collectors will always collect, it's in their blood and that won't change, be assured. If they see something they want they'll figure out a way to get it, like a fox looking into a chicken pen.

What are the alternatives at this stage of the game? Adapt or fall by the wayside..? Give up all hopes of building that 'world-class collection,' or rethink the problem? Sell everything and just get out altogether? The time may come when some will have to do just that, to put bread on the table and a roof over the heads of our loved ones, sad, but true. By the way, how are all those 401K programs and savings-accounts coming along? Not much happening on those fronts either - beyond laughable!

My small grains of advice would be these ... look for bargains but never be a skinflint! Times may be tight, however, don't fool yourself into thinking that just because you have some money to spend that people will simply give away their good, valuable collectibles for next to nothing. If you've set your sights on something expensive and you've saved your ass off and have the money, by all means buy. But, buy because that particular item captures your imagination and fascinates you, don't treat it as some big investment that's going to return vast, wild profits. If you take this kind of approach you'll make life a lot simpler and less stressful. Above all, don't blame things on the fat-cats of the hobby for the sad economic state. If they charge really high prices and get them, so be it ... nobody's twisting anyone's arm to buy there, consider it just a point of reference. If you keep your nose to the grindstone there are always good deals to be found somewhere ... live and let live, and never be jealous of other's good fortunes, it's very bad ju-ju!

Keep a stiff upper-lip, best!

Bill Warda

Perfect summation of the situation Bill, eloquently put. I'm in total agreement.
Paul

Bill,

Very knowledgeable words well written my friend.

You've touched points on all aspects of this great hobby.

I truly think this is good advice to live by.

Thanks
Rich

Bill bravo my friend !!

Bill, I can only agree! It takes a smart guy like you to put it into a Nut Shell for us! Thank you! JME

Bravo, Willi!

John

I second that, Bill is the man!

When I look around I observe that dealers have hiked their prices considerably since 2008. One dealer (not mentioning names) has had one dagger up for sale for well over a year to my knowledge and has just recently increased the price by $400!

If you look at what other collectors & the "forum dealers" are offering 90% of what is on offer is not only junk quality but over-priced by a huge margin.

There really is not much out there that is worth collecting any longer IMHO.

Rock bottom? The only thing rock bottom is the quality of what is on offer.

I just love the dealers that can't seem to sell an item, yet keep raising the price. I recently had a dealer show me a couple training rifles. When I reached for the rifles he said "don't pay any attention to those prices". I assumed this meant he was willing to come down. When I asked the price he quoted $100 more than was on the tags. When I asked why more, he said "those are old prices, I just hadn't gotten around to changing them"!

Landser & Timboo,

Don't feel disappointed, it's the way of the world ...

Junk at exorbitant prices has always been a serious obstacle to the collector, though, the hurdle maybe high, it's not insurmountable. Maybe we have to re-align our sights and re-think the problem? ... how to find good things at reasonable prices?

Personally, I like to think that something nice is always just around the corner ... sure the slogging gets more difficult all the time - less money, more competition, greed and ignorance are all big stumbling blocks to our persuit of happiness. Even our own hesitance to spend "too much" in this tight economy adds to the headache of collecting. That being said, I still think there are many, many good things out there to be found for our collections, and at fair prices, too.

Most of my friends in this hobby constantly seem to turn up exceptional, good quality items, at so-so reasonable prices - how is that possible? Are they just so much better at sniffing out deals than the rest of us? What makes them so successful at building their collections, are they all millionaires..? No. I'd have to say the best part of it comes from simple determination, knowledge, persistance and appreciation of all kinds of fine things, in general.

Look on the bright side, a lot of dealers with crazy, outrageous prices on their wares will quietly pass into eternity with them ... may god bless all their pointy little heads.

Never give up the ship!

Bill