UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Army Etch, no sprigs

Hello.

This is the army dagger I mentioned in an earlier post.

The etch looks much better in hand but I have tried to get the best pictures I can, without to much flash. The Tang has a slightly elongated shoulder, much more than I usually see.

The etch has been applied and then the blade plated, it is crisp and very well defined. Just running a finger across the blade you can feel the edges of the pattern.
I have shown this to a few people and although it does not have the underwing leaves (sprigs)the feeling is that it is correct. I have not read up on etched blades and this is the only one I have (Army)Though I was aware of the issues these pose.

I know that most collectors steer away from the non text book type but this looked so good and could not be compared with some of the obvious copies I have seen. It was a spur of the moment purchase at a US show. (and not big bucks!!)

I am very happy with it, even if it turns out to be post war, they did a bloody good job in my opinion!! So why miss out on the most obvious?

More pictures.

And yet more

Final batch

I'm no expert on etches so I can't comment on that. There are a few things I've notices about the dagger. First of all I would have expected an earlier crossguard on a Eickhorn dagger with the early double oval trademark. Second I don't think the scabbard was produced by Eickhorn. The scabbard-bands as well as the scabbard screw don't look right for an Eickhorn produced scabbard.

I would like to hear the opinion of JohnZ. He is an expert in both Eickhorn daggers as well as etches.

Danny

No expert here, either, but Wittmann says Eickhorn etched blades were not plated. Certainly, that could be arguable, but he seems to state it very strongly. There are parts of the etch, the eagle's wings, for example, that look a bit sketchy and lack the crispness usually associated with period etching. There are period blades with "no sprig" eagles, but they are the exception, rather than the norm. The vast majority of fakes have no sprigs. Someone truly knowledgeable of period etches should be able to clarify things.

I have been doing some poking around.

Inf Rgmt 96 was part of the 4th army 2nd corps.
It was commanded by General Franz Bohme, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_B%C3%B6hme wiki link.

They Invaded Poland in Sept 1939. At that time Deutsch Krone was part of Germany and this group was moved up to the border and headed for Debrzno (Germnan name) I was wondering why the etch would refer to a Polish area. It became polish after the war.
The wings etch in that area is right on the flang of the dagger. Though it may not show up well in the picture there was an element of scuffing all through that area that I removed with some light wax and a cloth.

The crossguard is a type 4 I think and is heavy silvered, the patina across all the fittings is even. Maybe Jon can answer the scabbard question as he has seen and held this dagger.

As I said earlier it is so nice I am not bothered if it was only made last week. I just posted it here to generate some discussion and attempt to gain some knowledge. All the fakers need do is add some "sprigs", not plate it, change the maker mark, get some better fittings, a real scabbard and change the Unit for a more common one or not and they could be off and running. Though I wonder how many they could get away with making before alarm bells rang?

Just to add when I bought this I paid around $600.

original

postwar

Thats excellent, I think the postwar looks better to be honest.

So that would mean that the Eickhorn stamp is also postwar. When were these produced? because It is very good quality and one would have thought the postwar copiests would have had an original to go by? Why choose such an obscure regiment as well?

Can we see an image of the rest of the blade and dagger?

Not too many years ago, Reddick sold repro etched army and LW blades with various makers and unit markings. They had this type of army eagle. My best guess is this blade is one of those. Have you looked at the tang?

On p. 139 of Wittmann's "army" book is depicted an "Eickhorn" etched blade with eagle. The eagle has the sprigs. Wittmann notes they are different than the "Voos" type, but the floral etch is identical. The background on this blade was darkened.

I think we've concluded that this is not an Eickhorn factory Etch, but is it possible that Franks piece was etched during the period but done after it was issued (not factory). I would have to believe that someone offered etching just like jewelers and engravers offered their services to officers after the daggers were issued to personalize their sidearms .

Whenever we as collectors see something that is "not textbook" we immediately pass it off as reproduction/post war. I think items like these need to be studied more as Frank has done/doing. It's not a far stretch of the imagination to think "some" of these etches were also a type of personalization like the engraved personalized daggers . Just my opinion.

Rich

Yes Grumpy, The tang has no markings and the collar is much longer than normal. Not tapered but still has the clamp marks and very little finishing marks. All the fittings are original as far as I can make out.

A lot of work and research went into the making of this blade. I suspect the person that bought this back then would have paid much more than I did and it may have taken pride of place in a collection until the time came for it to be passed on. I would be hard pressed to identify the makers mark a fake and I wonder if they had a batch of original blades and simply embelished them?
I have visited the Eickhorn factory and met with the family on a different mission, they have very little left of the period tools other than memories so they ended up somewhere? We did discuss the possibility of a possible market in the restoration of period pieces but thats another story.

I have one of these with an identical etch to yours, clearly made from the exact same templates, same smiling eagle

Mine is marked with the EP&S (Pack) maker mark. I have seen others of the same vintage with PDL, Alcoso and Clemen & Jung logos. As far as I know these were produced in the 70s with drop forged blades. When I bought mine years ago it was also hilted into a real army dagger, but a little more aged to be convincing, with the aim to deceive.

While I'd also like mine to be period, I'm certain that these are post war, there are a lot of these around I'm afraid.

Red

A few more of these...

they did a very good job, it must be shame to have ruined or used decent parts to fool the buyers.

Did they cost much back in the day and I wonder if they were done by the same gang that embelished those K98 bayonets?

It will remain in my collection and will be one of those I leave to my son. I will not be selling it but will make sure it is labelled as a post war etch.

The Reddick blades were not terribly expensive, around $100, or so, if memory serves. I don't think period blades were used, but newly manufactured.

Eagle is poor etch, the edges are too wide into the engraving, the scabbard is not right. I would pass.