UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum 2nd Model Naval Blade etch question

This is probably an old question, but Im going to ask it anyway. The 2 blade etches the we encounter when collecting 2nd Model Navals, the one etch is a sailing ship motif and the 2nd
is a fowled anchor motif which is mostly encountered.
The question is did the officers who had these daggers have a choice to which one they would of liked on their blade OR was it a matter of an award especially the sailing ship motif that I personally dont see too often? How awas it that some daggers got the fowled anchor and some others received the sailing ship. Naval hanger question and photos to follow later. Best regards Larry

Naval daggers were purchased with the Officer's uniform allowance. They would have the choice of finish from the standard lightning bolt scabbard to the extra cost hammered scabbard, likewise the fouled anchor etch was the "standard" pattern, the sailing ship etch was an extra cost option. There were other options including the guilding, scabbard rings, orange trolon or ivory grip, etc... There is no award or rank significance in the etch pattern. I think it was Holler that only produced the sailing ship etch, while Eickhorn only made the fouled anchor, it's simply preference.

Red

Hey Red thanks for the info,, here is a question that I also dont have an answer for... What is the difference between 2nd model Naval hangers and Kriegsmarine hangers. Here is my WKC 2nd Naval with hangers.

#2

#3 inside the lion mask,, looks like an "M" or a "W"

#4 and what is the little hook attached to the chain used for? Sorry Navals are not my bag, but I would appreciate an education on it. Best Larry

Nice rig you have there Larry. The early KM daggers, pre 1938 had solid brass guilded hanger hardware. The 2nd model KM typically has the aluminum hardware.

The chain is designed to hook into the upper scabbard ring to hold the dagger in a more vertical position from what I recall. I don't think it was often used, I don't remember seeing a pic of a KM dagger suspended like this...

Red

Concerning the blade etch I have to add that there were firms that obviously had a preference for the one or the other etch. EG PUMA navies mostly (always?) are known for sailing ship etches. I think to remember that PACK had either an own special etching or the sailing ship etching. EICKHORN only (mostly???) did use the fouled anchor. WKC did use both motives but mostly combined with special other features as yellow gripped with hammered scabbards mostly (not always) had the sailing ship motive, those with white grip and lightning scabbard had the fouled anchor.
The current availability of a firm, a makermark, also might have had influence what dagger (therefore what etching) was chosen to be bought by the officer.
You see, the answer might be very complex.

Concerning the mark in the hanger buckle I have to add that those marks are rarely encountered. Another "mark" I am well aware on those buckles is the "tree points" mark. On rare occasions the buckle are marked with the navy acceptance mark.

Regards,

It also should be added that the sailing ship etch is the early etch used before the Third Reich and then continued into the Third Reich. The fouled anchor dagger etch is a Third Reich era etch and to my knowledge never used before that.

Largely land locked, the first real navy was that of the state of Prussia, which morphed into that of the German state. With dirks/daggers originally being secondary to swords, they borrowed the traditions/designs of others, with the fouled anchor being a very popular motif. Being the most conservative of the services, the same traditions continued into the TR era, with of course more emphasis on daggers.

That said, the sailing ships seem to be a later innovation when seen in context. And considering some of the designs that are observed (for example) on dress bayonets: with tanks, aircraft, and guns etc. as themes. To me it seems that there was a split, with some makers going to the more traditional motifs, versus the more artistic or theme driven ones (or both like WKC if the maker wanted to cover all of the bases). FP

Naval etches. It really is difficult to say historically what came first, the fouled anchor or the sailing ship as we are turning up new informaton with some frequency. The fouled anchor etch does appear on the 1848 naval dagger. It appears on a later production piece likely 1860s. Sailing ships show up with great frequency on 1872 cadet sidearms.

quote:

Naval etches. It really is difficult to say historically what came first .......

If anything, I think that is probably something of an understatement. As the history of the early years is somewhat chaotic. There were name changes, leadership changes, and other things going on while everything was getting sorted out.

What is clear is that Prince Adalbert of Prussia besides dirks, authorized the adoption of a direct copy of the British model 1827 Naval Officer’s saber. Albeit without the crown over the fouled anchor on the half-basket hilt (and blade) of the British sword. With an ivory (or bone) white grip instead of ray-skin. With the fouled anchor symbolism itself being a carryover from earlier times predating the introduction of acid etching. FP

What was the lowest rank that a Kriegsmarine personael I have seen was allowed to wear the dagger compared to an SS mann being allowed to wear a chained SS after a certain amount of years and before 1933? Does this also apply with the navy personel? I have seen SS men with very low rank carrying a chained SS.
My other question is can someone post a pic with the chain hook attached to the upper scabbard ring?
I tried this myself and it does not want to stay vertical,,OR maybe I am doing it wrong. Much appreciate the education I asked for and would like to hear more!! Thanks Larry