UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum P.S.S.

Dear fellow collectors, in another forum I have heard about a rumor, that since some times the imo very rare P.S.S. are faked. Allegedly in England, under the use of the butcher SG 08/15.
Have anybody of you heard of this in real or has anybody of you seen such a fake?
If yes, how are the done, how is the quality, do they come near originals?
Thankl you in advance.
Attached is a pghotograph of two of mine which I do own for a long period, hoping they are originals .
Regards,

No--and I don't believe that. Too much work. I'm sure yours are fine.

Not seen any over here yet

Wotan,

I've never seen anything that remotely resembled a reproduction PSS although it wouldn't surprise me that someone might try. Both of your examples look very nice indeed.

Thank you very much for looking and your competent opinions. They are exactly the same I have myself.
Regards,

Wotan:

Those are great examples of a very rare bayonet.

I haven't heard of any fakes of these...and I, too, think that it would be a lot of work to try to get these right.

John

Thank you JohnZ, it conforms with my personal thoughts and observations.
Regard,

This particular model would be next to impossible to reproduce. No scabbard available that would match the workmanship or finish, no blade the same size to steal from and no hilt quality with markings and engraving. It would have to be a ground up reproduction and quality required I don't think can be reproduced today, as seen in the supposed super repros NOT!!

Wotan.......I hope your winter is over.

I agree with Ron Weinand that it would be difficult if not impossible to reproduce the P.S.S., especially considering the scabbard would have to be made from scratch. I imagine a S98/05 could be used to grind the blade down and finish properly, but the scabbard is the difficult point.

And I have heard of no reproductions, although someone at the Show of Shows two years ago told the young collector to whom I had sold my duplicate P.S.S. that the scabbard was re-blued. What an ignorant fool that person was.

JoeW, in the moment it looks like it is coming back, at least the temperatures...

I am totally with you and Ron. The combination of etching and engraving is not easy to dublicate. Especially when you ever have handed an original. The problem might be for unexperienced collectors. But I think these would not collect such a rare and from a lot of collectors unknown sidearm.
And you are totally right (have been also my personal thoughts) that the trickiest part is the scabbard.

In a german forum (where even very "experienced" collectors did not know these bajonets) there was the certain rumour of fakes made in England. No pics there. So I just wanted to hear if anybody has seen such a beast as for me the rumour also was totally new.

JoeW, I am aware, that the originals come with two kind of scabbard finishes: either blued or phosphated. The left one in my photograph has a blued scabbard (looks almost new) and the right one has the phosphated variant.
Although they are pretty rare the condition of most is nicer than the condition of common police bajonets. A collector friend here has one which still has a lot of protection laquer on the scabbard. Looks brand new but is right as rain and original.

Regards,

Wotan--Can we see the scabbards? I am not familiar with any with a dull finish

Wotan, like Houston, I have never seen a phosphate finish on these scabbards. Is the configuration identical with your blued example? Pull the the scabbard throat piece with runners and examine the runners. Do they have WaA?

We see phosphate finishes on some fairly late guns and bayonets for the Wehrmacht. But not with these bayonets, and my guess is that maybe somebody used an acid bath to remove rust - which can leave a grayish pickled appearnce?? FP

Perhaps I did misinterpret the difference in the look. I do not have the P.S.S. s at hand, but I attach a detail wherein you can see the different look. I hope you get the impression.
The lower one is a bright deep black/blued variant (which I also have seen with protection laquer), the upper one is the one I did assume the scabbard to be phospated. It´s more grey-blue variant with slightly rougher surface.
For sure no rust remover used.

Wotan, understood - with the one at the top being rust blued. Which was an older process still used for a while by some makers who eventually went from using it to the newer 'hot dip' process. For comparison purposes in the image posted - rust bluing also at the top. A 'hot dip' blued example in the middle (aka: black oxide). With a reddish tinged blued example at the bottom which was probably caused by too much heat in the bluing tank. Regards, FP

I wonder about the one with the dull finish. Perhaps it has been refinished at some time. Unusual anyway.

A few minor additions to my earlier comment: The use of rust bluing (Brünierung) as a viable period commercial process in Germany is well within the time frame for at least the earlier P.S.S. bayonets (both were in use). And once you got past the initial investment in new equipment, the black oxide finishing process itself is much faster and less labor intensive/expensive than rust bluing. FP

Houston, I am not skilled to make photographs to show the certain surface detailed enough but I am absolutely sure that the scabbard has not been refinished postwar. If you could hold it in hands like I do you would see it easily.
FP, you might be right that it could be rust blueing. It has some scarfs and it looks like a very durable, period coating.
Regards,

Wotan, While I don’t have it “in hand”, I’m fairly certain that it is rust blued from what seems to be in the image. I also looked for a better picture than the (in sunlight) image I posted to give a better visual for rust bluing. Which actually creates some very small (blued) pockmarks in the surface which makes for a fairly durable surface finish (which interestingly also has some benefits for rust prevention ie: miniscule "hooks" for the retention of oil/grease or as a base for a lacquer).

While I didn’t find what I was looking for, I did find a side by side image of period German black oxide (bluing) and phosphating that shows some of the differences. Also taking note of the sand blasting of the scabbards prior to bluing/phosphating (creating somewhat larger pockmarks), which gives that dull appearance from the scattering of reflected light. Best Regards, Fred