UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum Engraved SA Presentation Dagger

This Dagger was picked up at the SOS Fri..It is a early SA Dagger by Giesen&Forsthoff Gau marked Ns.It is Punch-Engraved (Translated the best of my ability)..(Honorary award of the 40th Cavalary Troop 6th Horse riding Tournament Stendal 1935)Stendal is a town 78 miles west of Berlin. This Dagger was looked over by both Tom Whittmann and Bill Shea at the Show and they said it was 100% correct.Tom and Bill were very helpful in translating and Authenticating this Dagger. Best Regards, Jeff

Another pic.

Jeff,
Absolutely stunning, beautiful condition with the history right on the crossguards. I wouldn't mind having that in my collection. Another beautiful piece from the SOS.
Looks like I missed out on a great show.

Rich

Thanks Rich, I new I had something special with the Dagger when Tom looked at it smiled and said he would like to buy it if I decided not to...The SOS was great as always I think that prices were up on just about everything this year. I did get this SA Dagger and a Nice M40 L/W Helmet at the Show. Regards, Jeff

Hi Forton sounds like you had a great time at the SOS,, and it is quite breath taking when you walk into that big room!! Nice SA and a hard maker to find. The 3pc hanger is the icing on the cake that completes the the whole dagger. Larry

I know what Liebstandarte means, Reiterstandarte seems to mean the Equestrian-SA.

Superb dagger well done!

Thanks to all for your Kind Comments on my recent find. I did notice I made a error in the Translation. It is (Honorary award of the 40th Cavalary Troop 6th Riding and Driving Tournament Stendal 1935) I had to post one more pic to show that this Dagger really is a Top Shelf piece as it now resides on the Top shelf of my Dagger Display Case. Best Regards, Jeff

Very nice Jeff,

Very nice.

Rich

Never mind the brownies, show us the SS Dagger(s)

Sorry to say that, but for an honor award this engraving is very poor. I cannot imagine that for such a honorable occasion the donor would have accepted such a poor work from the engraver.

Additionally there is a spelling mistake in the inscription.

I would be very sceptical that this is a period engraving.

Perhaps it was because the piece was cleaned too aggressively. But I would have expected with an almost 80 year old dagger to have seen some more signs of age inside of the protected areas (the punch marks). With the inscription done freehand with a hammer and punch by someone who had at best barely marginal skills (that is just MO - no offense intended). So I am at a loss as to how you could determine the age - if that is what it looked like at the SOS.

PS: It’s always possible that the images presented do not do full justice to the piece. So I’m posting two closeups that I hope illustrate the basis for my concerns. FP

The concerns that ivbaust and FP brought up are the some of the concerns I had when I first looked at the dagger....I have been collecting German edge weapons and Helmets for over 25 years but I still wanted Tom or Bill to check it out because it was engraved.You never know when messing with engraved Daggers whether was it done in 1935 or 2005. The Dagger is as found at the SOS. It has been seriously Cleaned Not by me. I have noticed that the letters t. h. i. r. have a underscore, and it was Gau marked Ns before being engraved.I think that The Ns Gau district is next to but not in Stendal.Not for sure about that.The punch marked engraving looks the same to me as the punch marked unit numbered daggers in Ralf Siegerts SA Dagger Book bottom of Page 74.The Dagger looks much better in hand than the pics posted.I do think what Tom Whittmann was looking for was the style of the lettering in the engraving he found no problems with it and ask me let him know if I did not buy it. I have bought SA daggers from this Dealer before and is he is trustworthy. One thought I had was possibly the Dagger was Won and engraved after the fact. Besides Tom W. and Bill S. Long time German Dealers Walter Dudgeon and (The Dagger Man) Jack Hundley looked the Dagger and found no problems with it. There are Little things you see when using a loupe that point to that maybe the guy that did the engraving was not as bad a engraver as we thought. My gut feeling on it is it is period done. Thanks for all your comments....... Dave The SS Dagger in the display case is the one I got from Paul Hogle last year and I posted pics then....but I can post more Best Regards, Jeff

Jeff, That’s correct as Stendal is north and slightly east from Magdeburg which is in the adjoining Mitte (Mi) district. Best Regards, Fred

Thanks Fred. Regards,Jeff

Sorry again, but that doesn´t say anything about the authenticity of the engraving

I am Sorry you Perceived this Dagger to not be Period Engraved when two of the leading Dagger Experts In the World Tom Wittmann and Bill Shea say it is.I would say the Experts who have Written Books and handled thousands of daggers just might know what they are talking about. Regards, Jeff

Jeff all that matters is that your happy with the dagger!

Jeff, You had some doubts yourself which is presumably why you shopped the dagger around for some other opinions. And as any visitor to the forum(s) over time knows, there can be some honest differences of opinion which could on occasion be contrary to either established “traditional views”. Or as regards a specific item or group of items. With the reported “in hand” experiences not being really specific IMO as to what has been brought forth in this current discussion. That said, if you are happy with the dagger that is what really counts.

But what is somewhat unusual with this dagger is still finding it listed online for sale. With a fair number of pictures (20) that show some things in detail but regrettably not some other areas of interest. The site owner does not want his pictures posted online W/O permission so all I can do here is post a link:

http://veteransfootlocker.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item.asp?807

So while I can’t post for review the images themselves. They were still useful to help study the application of the markings, and clarify what the inscription says ie: "6.Reit u. Fahrturnier i.Stendal 1935." on one side. And "Ehrenpreis : der Reiterstandarte 40" on the opposite side. With one set of images posted below a ‘redo’ trying to cut down on the glare. And the other, a pair shot at different angles that seems to show a very vigorously “scrubbed” lower crossguard - along with an upper crossguard with its natural patina apparently still intact. Regards, Fred

Who was the seller?

Dave,

The link is to the "Veteran's Footlocker", with this at the bottom of the listing: "Copyright © 2012 VeteransFootlocker.com all rights reserved". Which looks to be a valid website - with 20 pictures posted that appear to be from the same dagger.

http://veteransfootlocker.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item.asp?807

With that being the current extent of my knowledge. Maybe he needs to mark it as sold??

Best Regards, Fred

I saw that too, Fred, but many dealers leave sold stuff up for ages. I was wondering if someone bought it then sold it at the SOS.

If there is a spelling mistake this would be a BIG red flag for me. So I would really like to know more about this. Please tell us which word is spelled incorrectly.

Danny

Well, these gentlemen are for sure dagger experts, but they´re - according to my information - not native Germans, who are aware of the sometimes difficult German grammar. I´m not questioning the authenticity of the dagger. It´s a period one. But IMO the inscription is not period applied, but may have been applied to sell this dagger for a higher price.

Here are my two concerns:

1) There is a spelling mistake, which IMO would not have happened to a German engraver, especially not for an honor price. And it would not have been accepted by the contractor and sponsor. There is a hyphen missing after the word "Reit". I´ll try to explain it. In German language it is possible to shorten 2 words, when both words consist of 2 nouns each, are written one after another and have the same noun as ending in each word. The engraving says "Reit und Fahrturnier". This is the shortened version. In full length it means “Reitturnier und Fahrturnier”. In English it can be translated as “(horse) riding tournament and (carriage) driving tournament”. Both German words consist of 2 nouns, are written one after another and have the same noun as ending, which is “…turnier” (= tournament). The correct spelling is now to replace in the first word (“Reitturnier”) the second noun (“…turnier”) by a hyphen. This looks as follows: “Reit-“. The second word “Fahrturnier” remains unchanged. This little hyphen after “Reit” is missing and is simply wrong. This is my concern.

2) The style of the engraving is poor, which does not fit IMO to such a noble, elegant and to that times rather aristocratic sports tournament. The dagger was meant to be an honor price for the winner of an equestrian tournament and I can´t imagine that the donor and the contractor would have accepted such a poor engraving with a spelling mistake.

Well, that´s my opinion and if you post your dagger for opinions, I appreciate your understanding that there might be also replies, which you may not want to hear.

I thought I’d post an update on the engraved S.A. dagger I got at the Show of Shows. I ran into Jon Vastine, the dealer I bought the dagger from, at the Tennessee Military show. This would be the 3rd early S.A. dagger I’ve bought from Jon. I told him about posting the dagger on the German Dagger forum and the concerns about the missing hyphen in the engraving. Jon offered an immediate full refund if I was unhappy for any reason. I also took the dagger to a dealer who is proficient in the dagger engraving field at the show and he felt it was ok. So I have decided to keep the dagger as I really do like the look of it. It resides again on the top shelf of my dagger display case. Thanks for all your comments, Jeff

Not being a 'dagger guy' something has me wondering...
I see some refer to this as 'engraved',,,but on my monitor it looks like the dot dot dot of an electric pencil! IF it is was this common when doing dedications on these pieces?..

Agree with G,
Have no clue if period done but engraved yes. Not with a graver tool, but machine assisted. I can't tell but is it zig zag engraved?

Wharever you post online is going to get pro and con replys.Go with what the experts say.Alot of times one does not know who is making the comments or how much they really know.I have a hand inscribed dagger nothing professional about it but it's the only inscribed piece I plan to keep.

An interesting dagger for sure and IMO always difficult to conclusively authenticate a dedication. When I'm personally faced with these I look to 3 key factors...

1. Is the dedication grammatically correct and in accepted German language. 2. Does the dedication speak to the period, location, date, unit, etc. Sometimes inscriptions do not tie up historically or geographically. 3. Is the style or type of dedication consistent with typical period methods, and is is typographically correct/period style.

The reality is that no matter who critiques the dedication in terms of technique, is could have been done period, or last year... A possible explanation for this style of "engraving" is that it was done by an ameteur with no access to jewelers/engravers tools. This may explain the atypical hammer-punch method, but of course it's nothing more than conjecture on my part.

Enjoy the dagger

Best, Red

If the German engravers can make a mistake on the Sepp Dietrich SS sword they could have made a mistake on anything.

4. The apparent age of the engraving as contrasted with the rest of the item. Which is sometimes hidden by paint. But not always, with on some items having a form of camouflage applied by brightening everything to match.


It looks like hammer and punch by an unskilled amateur to me. One hand holds the punch, and the other the hammer .......... tap ......... tap ........... tap ........... FP