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Jim W #273189 10/31/2012 11:07 PM
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hi jim

im not a newbie been collecting for many a year i just dont post on here as much as other forums as i always thought of this as a dagger only place and im more of a badges person, but when it does come to daggers this has always been the place to go ,but the way this thread is going is disappointing as there seems to be no room for discussion ,its fake and thats it and no proof will ever be good enough i just think we all need to be more open minded to other possibilities.
there are new facts coming out all the time, and items that where thought of as fake yrs ago are now, thanks to new info thought of as good ,and vice versa thats whats great about these forums the ability to talk to people who share an interest and to help sort fact from fiction ,but there seems to be no interest in listening to both sides of the story or in listing any proof or facts to back up claims, nobody wants to see fakes made to look genuine theres enough fakes out there already taking good money out of collectors pockets, but that doesnt mean everything that isnt the norm is automatically fake, we have to be able to judge on facts and listen to both sides with an open mind

stu a #273192 10/31/2012 11:31 PM
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stu, I certainly will not argue with or take exception to your above post. The problem is that from my reading, No new "hard" evidence or proof has been offered up by Mac, or anyone else here. If there is something new on this particular issue, then present it here. But not just some anecdotal evidence or story some seller gives. I do not believe this matter can be proved either way. Not with hard evidence that will sway people on either side of the issue. So, people will continue the argument which is pointless. The prevailing wind on this forum is that the solid red is questionable. It is fine to make other argument but as adults.

I am just looking for a little civility. After all, I hang out here and actually enjoy reading the posts.

Jim W #273242 11/01/2012 11:55 PM
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stu and Jim,

Your observations are correct and I am not talking about this topic. You have to have a flexible mind in this hobby. Probably in other hobbies based on collecting older items as well.

We are relatively fortunate in that we have multiple examples to consider. With many daggers, thousands of examples. With HJ, probably the most of any dagger/knife ... excepting maybe bayos.

janjan #273414 11/04/2012 10:43 PM
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Some time ago I started this topic aboud the sollid red HJ dagger because I want to buy one.
I did not know it becomes so emotionaly discusion.
Beside I bought the dagger with the sollid red i`m happy with the dagger.
It is again a dagger with the plastic hanger and the daimond looks iff it is mounted in the propper way.
Hermann is still not comming with a clear evidance these daimonds are fake it is ownly his feeling.

janjan #273419 11/04/2012 11:36 PM
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Perhaps JanJan, but your belief the other way is also only a feeling. You have offered no clear proof they are original period inserts.

A good example would be the army daggers marked Weirsburg, Berlin. Can anyone prove they are not period. Is there some factory invoice that has been presented that proves to everyone in the world they are produced after the war. And no doubt there are people who believe they are original. But the consensus is they are not.

So, this is like all markets. Many people believe the sold diamond is not correct and will not pay for the knife. You, on the other hand get the benefit of a reduced price because demand is down. You can then make the argument that you are the only intelligent person because you are buying it, it is original, and you got a reduced price.

It just does not make it true.

So, Jan Jan. Perhaps you can answer my question. What happened to the thousands of Hitler Youth knives that we denazified in the east block?

Jim W #273469 11/05/2012 11:05 PM
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I don`t say the sollid red is original I can`t prove but there isn`t any prove they are fake so let us close this discussion.
Iff there is ever a real prove it is fake I`ll dump the dagger.

janjan #273486 11/06/2012 04:24 PM
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Janjan,

It is the same as with the DJ knifes, the "Nurnberg" knifes,the "Olympia" knifes, ... and now also the full red diamond HJ knifes.

All are highly questionable... but some people continue to believe in them and they are daily sold for top dollar prices!

A forum like this one has the objective to warn collectors and I believe we did more than our job in that context.

And we will continue to do so in the future!

Best regards,

Herman


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I have been following this thread here and on WAF with a lot of interest.

Ultimately, it boils down to belief. If one believes in the solid red diamonds or in the Nurnberg DJ knife, then one will defend it, if one doesn't believe, then one won't.

Like any belief, it cannot be disproved.

The proof will come the day that you try to sell one of these and have to make up all kinds of reasons why anomalies are ok.

It's no use arguing about it at this point, one either will buy the thing or one won't.

John

Last edited by JohnZ; 11/06/2012 09:00 PM.

Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #273509 11/06/2012 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: JohnZ
I have been following this thread here and on WAF with a lot of interest. Ultimately, it boils down to belief. If one believes in the solid red diamonds or in the Nurnberg DJ knife, then one will defend it, if one doesn't believe, then one won't. Like any belief, it cannot be disproved. The proof will come the day that you try to sell one of these and have to make up all kinds of reasons why anomalies are ok. t's no use arguing about it at this point, one either will buy the thing or one won't. John

John, I get your point which is well taken - but would respectfully disagree to the extent that with discussions sometimes new information, pictures etc. are presented that tends to tip the scale one way or another.

As they say “I don’t have a dog in this fight” - and I don’t like fakes. With included on my personal list: The “embellished” aluminum hilted small knives with the added on scabbard emblems, etchings, and multiple kinds of grips (with and without emblems). But I think that is a topic unto itself.

So perhaps all of the opaque red diamond HJ-DJ knives are postwar modified - who knows? The only period document that I know of simply lists an HJ emblem giving a specific size. With what I am looking for is: 1) Some additional kind of RZM documentation specifying how the grip emblems were to be manufactured. 2) Or some kind of proof that the HJ emblems were not made with an opaque red enamel during the time of the Third Reich.

Which is where I’m having a problem. Because there are some items like the RZM marked Party pins, and other items with an opaque red enamel that seem to be well accepted as period by the guys that specialize in them. The transparent red enamel Party pins that I think have a ‘reeded’ or different design underneath the enamel instead of the ‘dots’ (or pimples/scales as I’ve seen then described). And the woven fabric HJ cap/sleeve/sports badges that all seem to be a solid red with no design woven into the fabric. So are the ‘dots’ required to be a part of the HJ-DJ knife grip emblem? Or was it something that some of the badge/emblem makers did on their own?

We've also seen some topics that are argued back and forth for years before some kind of reasonable conclusion can be reached. For me personally, that day is not today with the level of proof that I’ve seen so far. Best regards to all, Fred

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Thank to you all for many reply on this topic.
I ditn`t expect so many collectors are intrested in thos topic
hanks to Fred Prinz he is he one who learned us a lesson "it boils down to belief" wink

HJ RUIT4 (Medium).JPG (75.72 KB, 278 downloads)
janjan #274091 11/17/2012 06:58 PM
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Hi Jan,

i,m back just to say enjoy your hj knife with the solid red hj daimond insignia smile

There is nothing wrong with the solid red enamel hj pins imo wink

Proof will be forthcoming summer 2013 that they were period produced & made to fit hj knifes with the 2 metal tangs to fit into the griplates just like the daimond BobI has showed on WAF & added to previous posts on this thread which is a genuine TR produced daimond imo,

i would not compare solid red enamel pins to DJ knifes!!

Each to his own opinion,



Regards Mac 66.

Mac 66 #275782 12/18/2012 06:20 AM
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O
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It is very rare in the world. Reason while is there was only one red diamond offered, an .80ct fancy red oval-cut. Red diamond normally uses one milllion carats of rough to yield a one-carat pink diamond.

Owen #275793 12/18/2012 02:47 PM
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"It is very rare in the world. Reason while is there was only one red diamond offered, an .80ct fancy red oval-cut. Red diamond normally uses one milllion carats of rough to yield a one-carat pink diamond."

I am so confused right now...


Silver Badge #0398

My Avatar = My dagger security system! wink
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Johnny,

You're OK. Owen is having difficulty with something.

Dave

Dave #276001 12/21/2012 01:49 PM
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Paul Seilheimer.
Recovered diamond:
RZM-M1/13 L. Christian Lauer/Nurmberg.

DSC08251.JPG (83.68 KB, 366 downloads)
DSC08273.JPG (117.01 KB, 366 downloads)
DSC08299.JPG (115.55 KB, 364 downloads)
DSC08295.JPG (96.1 KB, 364 downloads)
Last edited by Sam_71; 12/21/2012 01:54 PM.
Sam_71 #276246 12/27/2012 11:07 PM
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Sam 71

Are you saying you removed the solid red daimond insignia from this early hj knife ?

interesting anyway, Thanks.



Regards Mac 66.

Mac 66 #276305 12/29/2012 07:36 PM
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Hello, Mac 66,
I do not think that this is really interesting. If you look at the split pins, you see that they are soldered quite roughly. In my opinion, here is an altered HJ membership badge with a dubious genuineness.
Regards Oleg.


Greater love has no one than this: to lay down his life for his friends.

John, 15:13

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Oleg67 #276307 12/29/2012 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: Oleg67
Hello, Mac 66,
I do not think that this is really interesting. If you look at the split pins, you see that they are soldered quite roughly. In my opinion, here is an altered HJ membership badge with a dubious genuineness.
Regards Oleg.



Hi Oleg,

For me this is not an altered hj badge, i do not see any roughly soldered split pins either, this is imo a genuine hj emblem for fitment into the griplate recess for an hj knife, maybe its not interesting to you but it is to me.



Regards Mac 66.

Mac 66 #276408 01/02/2013 12:02 AM
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If the diamond shown here was originally a dagger grip diamond, then it never would show the wear that we see here: three of the corners are worn off! That can never happen in a dagger grip!

But the picture of the reverse makes it all clear: the prongs have been artificially attached to what was -in the best case- a badge diamond!

A1.jpg (95.88 KB, 243 downloads)
A2.jpg (88.4 KB, 241 downloads)

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So what really happened here?

In order to fit this too big, full red diamond into an original early knife: the grip plate was damaged by making the diamond cutout bigger and 3 of the corners of the diamond were filed off.

A nice early HJ knife was spoiled by a full red replacement diamond!

I have indicated again the "worn off" corners of this obviously bad diamond.

This case clearly shows how a different lighting with photographs is used to deceive collectors: trying to turn bad stuff into good!

Concerning Mac, I can only conclude the following:

- or he has no feeling at all with this stuff and he really believes in the nonsense that he is posting on all the different fora...

- or he knows very well and he has bad intentions, trying to deceive collectors with his full red rubbish...

Best regards,

Victorman

B2.jpg (116.39 KB, 225 downloads)
Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 01/02/2013 06:59 PM.

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Herman,


No bad intentions ment here, i do not believe the daimond is orgional to this early hj knife shown, i can see clearly that the diamond has been filed to fit the griplate recess but do not believe the daimond is an altered hj badge, looks very much like dirt/corrosion on the rear, the 2 tangs are the type for fitment into the griplate imo, i am only interested in the daimond shown & i,m not trying to decieve anyone on this forum or any other forum, why would i want to decieve collectors herman ?, all i really want to do is get to the bottom of the solid red case which until now has never been proven as a Fake daimond with solid proof, simple as that wink



Regards Mac 66.

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The guy who posted this here -his only post, by the way!- wanted to make us believe that he got this diamond out of the early HJ.

But anyone with some experience and brains can see that the diamond is a replacement. So these prongs are most certainly added. How could they even have been preserved when the diamond was crushed into the too small cutout of an early HJ?

Best regards,

Herman


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Originally Posted By: Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
The guy who posted this here -his only post, by the way!- wanted to make us believe that he got this diamond out of the early HJ.

But anyone with some experience and brains can see that the diamond is a replacement. So these prongs are most certainly added. How could they even have been preserved when the diamond was crushed into the too small cutout of an early HJ?

Best regards,

Herman


Herman,

More info from Sam_71 would be needed here to confirm how he recovered the daimond imo.



Mac 66.

Mac 66 #276562 01/05/2013 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mac 66
Herman,


... all i really want to do is get to the bottom of the solid red case which until now has never been proven as a Fake daimond with solid proof, simple as that wink



Regards Mac 66.



Let me repeat this one more time:

- It is those who believe in the full red diamonds that should prove that they are period, not the other way around!

- And the only decisive proof would be: clearly demonstrating which maker(s), during which period, used the rare -but original?- full red diamond on his HJ’s.


The current approach, by showing some messed up and/or low quality knifes with full red diamonds from all different makers, from all different periods will never convince any logic thinking collector!

Good luck! grin

And best regards,


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Originally Posted By: Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)
Originally Posted By: Mac 66
Herman,


... all i really want to do is get to the bottom of the solid red case which until now has never been proven as a Fake daimond with solid proof, simple as that wink



Regards Mac 66.



Let me repeat this one more time:

- It is those who believe in the full red diamonds that should prove that they are period, not the other way around!

- And the only decisive proof would be: clearly demonstrating which maker(s), during which period, used the rare -but original?- full red diamond on his HJ’s.


The current approach, by showing some messed up and/or low quality knifes with full red diamonds from all different makers, from all different periods will never convince any logic thinking collector!

Good luck! grin

And best regards,




At least we have built up some referance here on the solid red/opaque enamel hj daimonds,

its not an easy task to find info solid red enamel hj pins like most things from the TR PERIOD!!

i have been told by many old time collectors that the good quality daimonds are genuine to hj knifes,

There are more believers so far & some good hard evidence will be forthcoming, watch this space wink



if certain people were not so hard to work with to discuss this subject it would make this a much easier task imo .

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Originally Posted By: Herman V. (aka Herr Mann)

[b]- It is those who believe in the full red diamonds that should prove that they are period, not the other way around!


I could not agree more !

May i ask you if this translates across the board? Would it apply to say:

The (Fantasy) Reichsparteitage knives
The (Fantasy) Olympic HJ knives
The (Fantasy) DJ knives
The (Fantasy) BDM knives
The (humped up) DJ knives with diamond on the scabbard

The list could go on....

Would it not also be up to the people who believe that these are genuine, to PROVE IT ? Even if they were all covered in-print, yet lacked any footnote, lacked any evidence that what the author wrote about, and pictured, he did of his own free will, and on purpose, without backing anything up with facts, documents, history...nothing....

Surely? Or does this only apply to badges ?


Last edited by WFI; 01/06/2013 05:02 PM.
WFI #276738 01/09/2013 11:28 AM
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I do not know that you can add. The diamond was recovered, while three faces were damaged and deformed. Images to extract not place unfortunately. Photos displayed after installing the diamond back. This operation is done in person. Owner knife sure that everything is correct. I doubt it, because the photo and put up for discussion.

Last edited by Sam_71; 01/09/2013 11:29 AM.
Sam_71 #276741 01/09/2013 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted By: Sam_71
I do not know that you can add. The diamond was recovered, while three faces were damaged and deformed. Images to extract not place unfortunately. Photos displayed after installing the diamond back. This operation is done in person. Owner knife sure that everything is correct. I doubt it, because the photo and put up for discussion.


Sam,

So the origional owner filed the daimond to fit the griplate recess as it was to big,

It will be a mystery as to how he fitted the daimond without damaging the 2 tangs imo,

can you ask him how he done the job please ?



Regards Mac 66.

Mac 66 #276748 01/09/2013 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mac 66
Originally Posted By: Sam_71
I do not know that you can add. The diamond was recovered, while three faces were damaged and deformed. Images to extract not place unfortunately. Photos displayed after installing the diamond back. This operation is done in person. Owner knife sure that everything is correct. I doubt it, because the photo and put up for discussion.


Sam,

So the origional owner filed the daimond to fit the griplate recess as it was to big,

It will be a mystery as to how he fitted the daimond without damaging the 2 tangs imo,

can you ask him how he done the job please ?



Regards Mac 66.


Mac 66,
Says gradually removing face up beyond the diamond. Used tools for fine work, and oil. Then leveled and sanded mount diamond damaged face.
Regards, Sam_71.

Last edited by Sam_71; 01/09/2013 07:19 PM.
Sam_71 #276755 01/09/2013 09:04 PM
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Says gradually removing face up beyond the diamond. Used tools for fine work, and oil. Then leveled and sanded mount diamond damaged face.
Regards, Sam_71. [/quote]


Hi Sam,

i get the drift now, Thanks wink



Regards Mac 66.

Mac 66 #277075 01/19/2013 01:13 PM
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Removed a reply of Mac, because of offensive talk.

And Mac, you are not allowed to post any links here.

I know that you topic has already been closed on WAF, so don't start here again, I will not allow it!

If you have proof:

WHICH MAKERS DURING WHICH PERIOD HAVE BEEN USING THE FULL RED DIAMONDS?

Than you can post it here directly.

Repeating yourself will also not been allowed here anymore.

You can go to the amateuristic forums and continue your ********-shat, if you want, but not here!

Best regards,

Herman

Last edited by Herman V. (aka Herr Mann); 01/19/2013 01:14 PM.

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Goodbye & Farewell, enjoy your GDC forum.


WAF Thread Now Re-Opened wink

Mac 66 #282885 05/18/2013 02:27 PM
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janjan Offline OP
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Kai Winkler has a cap for sale #90086 for a lot of money with a solid red daimond.Is this also fake?

janjan #290928 12/02/2013 12:23 PM
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Important link that will add more to this thread wink

Relic Hj knife with solid red diamond: http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290923&page=1



Mac 66.

Mac 66 #315301 01/24/2016 01:10 PM
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Another Solid Red enamel diamond for the hj knife for referance: RZM M1/13 L. Christian Lauer, Nürmberg



Regards Mac 66.

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