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#259634 02/13/2012 11:49 PM
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Another dagger. A copy of a contrast in size, with good attention to detail.

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back side.

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Last edited by den70; 02/13/2012 11:50 PM.

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pommel. pay attention number on copy pommel.

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The grip.

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Guard. The cover on original metal dagger part have missing place. On fake parts cover without it.

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Pusher. On original dagger it very specific. I don't know correct English name. Fake have imitation, I meet early same copy without pusher.

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ornament on shell of fake scabbard have identical pictures. But has not original blackering. Copy has imitation blac color like paint.

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tips of scabbards.

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Number on throat. TN dagger have number and it easier for detecting fake.

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logo.

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number on blade. Etching on original blade is very specific.


Next compared will be Railroad dagger.

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Last edited by den70; 02/14/2012 12:22 AM.

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Den,

Many thanks for this excellent side by side comparison of original & reproduction TeNo Leaders' daggers, well done! One thing I notice, the numbers on the blade & scabbard throat are much better than they used to be, as are the details of the crossguard.

Do you notice a difference in overall weight?


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Superb! Yes, thanks for all your efforts.

Dave #259656 02/14/2012 02:36 AM
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Wow!!! Granted most who follow this forum can tell them apart, but they are getting better and better....only a matter of time. We need a grading and authentication system. Some of you guys have years of great expertise that could do it.

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Another 'revelation' thread by Den70. -Good work with side-by-side photos.
Gives a chance for collectors to see and acknowledge the challenge before us.

If I may...Here is a hilt of a TeNo current 'super-fake'.




Here is a hilt of a used but original TeNo leader.



It looks to me that it will be very hard to tell by just 'normal' photos on what is a original dagger. You will need 'macro' shots in at least five areas.


-serge-

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Serge, until I could hold it in hands I would assume that the first dagger shown by you (the one with the white background) is the original one. due to the certain flaking on the grip fittings which I could not observe on fakes up to now. Especially due to the certain materials used for these superfakes such a flaking imo is not possible. Also the scabbard band (look the comparison by den70) imo looks like these on originals and not these on fakes. what are your thoughts concerning your first dagger beeing a fake and the second one (with the red background) beeing original? You are totally right, it might be very hard to tell a now good fake simply from pics.

den70, thank you for your 1:1 comparisons. They are very helpful and instructive for the moment. But we all have to ceep in mind that fakers that are capable of manufacturing such fakes are also capable to improve their products especially when they know what to look for.
Up to now I could observe that the totally proper materials and covers (the special silvering and other finish components) could not be reached by them close enough. Therefore especially differences in patination and the overall look. also keep in mind that they partially might use original spare parts.
Regards,


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Great informations that everyone should keep on file, good work !
I have to admit that these fakes are becoming much better and their quality have largly increased in the last few years, though still unconvicing in many respects to an expert eye ( not mine, haaaaaaaaa ). These are not your cheap Indian or Spanish repros but were probably constructed somewhere in Eastern Europe by expert craftmans.
I'm certain that many of these super fakes do now resides in collections all over the world. Sad truth for many collectors !

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Wow, this just keeps getting more frightening…!!!
I tried to look at some detail, to try and find a "constellation" match for original pieces. But, interestingly, it looks like these fakes have been cast from originals (or original molds, as the stipple constellations in the scabbard are the same (at least in pattern).
Below is the photo previously posted with a few identifiable patterns shared between original and fake pieces:

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Sorry, the photo size issue on this forum is re-damn-diculous…


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Because of the difference in the location of the screw, it would appear that the fakers are in-fact using the original dies for the scabbard.


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Originally Posted By: Johnny V.
Wow, this just keeps getting more frightening…!!!
I tried to look at some detail, to try and find a "constellation" match for original pieces. But, interestingly, it looks like these fakes have been cast from originals (or original molds, as the stipple constellations in the scabbard are the same (at least in pattern).
Below is the photo previously posted with a few identifiable patterns shared between original and fake pieces:


Yes you right. scabbard shell have identical image. Have small difference in shape dot and blackering. At fake dagger have it imitation like paint black color.

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The differences are pretty obvious with these close up pics, nothing to be really worried about if this is the best they can do. wink
Not even close !

Last edited by Pat; 02/15/2012 02:45 AM.
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Originally Posted By: wotan
Serge, until I could hold it in hands I would assume that the first dagger shown by you (the one with the white background) is the original one. due to the certain flaking on the grip fittings which I could not observe on fakes up to now. Especially due to the certain materials used for these superfakes such a flaking imo is not possible. Also the scabbard band (look the comparison by den70) imo looks like these on originals and not these on fakes. what are your thoughts concerning your first dagger beeing a fake and the second one (with the red background) beeing original? You are totally right, it might be very hard to tell a now good fake simply from pics.

------edit serge----




Wotan, The first one I show, on white background, is the fake. Not to confuse fakes, as Den70's fake in made somewhere in former Soviet Union, perhaps Belarus- I'm not sure.
The fake I show comes out of Europe. So these two fake TeNo leaders that Den and I show (white background) are fakes from different makers.
The patina TeNo with age look is authentic.

Here is more photos of the European TeNo repro. Just so everyone knows they are improving all the time. I'm told they have a newer version where even the top people in Europe think is good. I have no photos of it. Watch the big Auction houses!

REPRO


REPRO



Last edited by Serge (aka Wagner); 02/15/2012 05:11 AM. Reason: spelling
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REPRO



REPRO

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Originally Posted By: Pat
The differences are pretty obvious with these close up pics, nothing to be really worried about if this is the best they can do. wink
Not even close !


Pat, Your correct. IF you know what to look for and if you have it 'in hand'.
However if you buy it from sources you don't know, with just regular photos, these will hook many a collector.

Problem is many dealers here in the west don't know about these.
So threads like this are valuable for the survival of the hobby. As we know one must put in time into education or you know what can and does happen.... cry

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Wow, IMO from first glance these are really good quality !! In fact good enough to fool those who think they have a handle on it so to speak !!

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Serge, quiet frankly these would probably also fool me if I didn't have them in my hands.
If based on pics alone it is very difficult to tell what's right or wrong, like I've said these are faked made by excellent craftmen's, no doubt about it.
There are couple of daggers I still feel very unconfortable with, such as the NPEA and Hitler Youth Leader, these would fool me on any day. wink

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Hey Pat, weird coincidence, I have a buch of NPEA and HJ Leader daggers to sell you. laugh laugh laugh

But truth be told, I though I was comfortable with most models as well, but with these new fakes, it´s like starting over in the hobby, learning all of the "tell tale" flaws.
Don´t get me wrong, I love the hobby and love learning about it, but I don´t enjoy constantly being on an ever steeper and more dangerous learning curve just to stay 1 step ahead of a bunch of criminals, which if I get it wrong, costs me $$$.

Starts to take the fun out of things...

Good and careful hunting,
Johnny


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Well written "said" Serge ! I want to purchase a few daggers, however, seems like I will have to go to a show and do some extensive research. Of course the "hunt" is what makes part of collecting fun. Shame though when you have to throw in the fact of making POSITIVELY sure you are getting an authentic blade.

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I'm very happy that I allready have a original Teno leader. Since I live in Europe, I usually have to rely on pictures when I buy something. We don't have a lot of dagger-shows in the country I live in. With the fakes shown here, I wouldn't dare to buy a Teno from pictures alone anymore.

Danny

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Ok, I can see whom ever made these super fakes used an original dagger to make the molds then casted them. HOWEVER they did NOT calculate the shrink factor of steel. As the original molds cavities were slightly larger as metal shrinks once it cools. Notice the cross guards odd and smaller shape, also the grip is shorter, all due to casting miscalculations. Scary but not exact!

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Serge, the fake dagger you posted looks really dangerous, it would be great to see some detailed pictures (if possible).
Den, any news about your book on TeNo hewers/daggers?

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Damn good fake.

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777 #274159 11/19/2012 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: 777
Serge, the fake dagger you posted looks really dangerous, it would be great to see some detailed pictures (if possible).
Den, any news about your book on TeNo hewers/daggers?



This TeNo Leader super-fake is about 3 years old. Here is the hilt from the same dagger.



When I inquired from a contact how much would it cost for me to get one 'direct'. I was told 'they sell for about half of real ones'. Not wanting to spend $2,500 or so on a fake I inquired about just buying a cross guard. Then the trail got cold, as suspicion was raised that it was going to be closely examined.
These SFakes have been turning up in Europe first as that is where I'm told the 'source' is located. They move through the best respected auction houses where they are salted in with other original daggers from collections, and several dealers NOT known for selling fakes.

-serge-

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The makers of these Super-fake TeNo Leader dagger is improving all the time. I can show you this photo, and you will naturally see the 'error' in the numbers font. I was told that this obvious non-period font has already been fixed.



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Here is a older generation fake where a few were sold lacking the crossguard burnishing. Some lacking scabbard burnishing. Again, that was 'fixed' awhile ago.

So, this is all I have, and this info is dated, however being shared with you so you know what is out there.

-serge-


P.S. They change the serial numbers and track them. sick







Last edited by Serge (aka Wagner); 11/19/2012 05:04 AM.
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OK, gentlemen, in your opinion which category this one falls into?

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777 #274338 11/22/2012 07:21 PM
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BTW. The throat number looks period to me, but let it remain anonymous for a while.

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777 #274390 11/23/2012 06:59 PM
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to 777. I think at the pictures it original early dagger with stamped number on blade. But for final opinions need more pictures.
Best Den.


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Originally Posted By: Serge (aka Wagner)
Originally Posted By: 777
Serge, the fake dagger you posted looks really dangerous, it would be great to see some detailed pictures (if possible).
Den, any news about your book on TeNo hewers/daggers?



This TeNo Leader super-fake is about 3 years old. Here is the hilt from the same dagger.



When I inquired from a contact how much would it cost for me to get one 'direct'. I was told 'they sell for about half of real ones'. Not wanting to spend $2,500 or so on a fake I inquired about just buying a cross guard. Then the trail got cold, as suspicion was raised that it was going to be closely examined.
These SFakes have been turning up in Europe first as that is where I'm told the 'source' is located. They move through the best respected auction houses where they are salted in with other original daggers from collections, and several dealers NOT known for selling fakes.

-serge-


Sergey, I can not claim trust, but I think you show two different dagger on the first photo and dagger with the number 3067. I could be wrong but Dirk on your first picture has some nice features original dagger. (It maybe the parts dagger?) Detecting requires more photos and even better to compare it in the hands with original. Dagger 3067 no doubt fake.


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