Translate German to English - Click here to open Altavista's Babel Fish Translator Click here to learn about all those symbols by people's names.

leftlogo.jpg (20709 bytes)

Upgrade to Premium Membership

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Landser #258337 01/22/2012 10:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,712
Likes: 8
Offline
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,712
Likes: 8
Landser,

Yes, like sharks, these people are the legal versions of con men and crooks. You can hear of them trying to scam widows and the unknowing out of their antiques, their collectibles and their hard earned wealth.

There is nothing wrong with making a buck, but when you scam people into giving their stuff away for peanuts, you are scum.

The cop out, of course, for these people is the old 'but they didn't have to sell to me' whine. The other cop out is the old 'what do you want for this piece of junk' question.

Collusion is rampant in this business.. if we define collusion as the links and the relationships between people in this hobby along with the mutual backscratching that it brings with it. Those in the know and with the right network can take advantage of the unpublished items for sale, the distress sales and the discreet offerings. Collusion can raise prices or can tank them. When done by big business, it is a crime. When done by little guys, it is a fact of life.

I have my own Honour Ring story. I purchased a named ring from a really good dealer. Not cheap, but honest and in really good shape. A while later, the dealer contacted me to try to make a deal. He would take the ring back at 80% of what I paid for it and, in exchange, I could buy a lesser ring that had the name removed for a lower price and have some money left over. I accepted, then regretted what I had done. I was really annoyed. I talked to the dealer about it and was offered some platitudes and attempted compensation for my hurt feelings. I rejected that since the annoyance I felt was with me, not with him. But, I did make it clear that I didn't want to hear of these kinds of 'offers' again, and I haven't.

John


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
JohnZ #258339 01/22/2012 11:24 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,480
L
Offline
L
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,480
Annoyance with self is a hard one. it`s always much better if you can apportion blame elsewhere LOL.

I know the feeling! It`s probably a bit of a digression but what the heck.

Despite there being some great pieces in the U.K. there isn`t much of a good selection of stuff that comes to market and if it does then the dealers here ask the kind of monopoly money I refuse to pay. (I couldn`t live with my own stupidity).

Mostly wahat I have has come from the U.S & Canada. Some from dealer`s I respect & trust and much from colleague collectors. I have never liked lay away and internationally it is costly & impractical. I never had that much patience either.

If I did not have funds I used my credit card and kept switching balances between them to get zero or at least reduced interest rates. This worked very well until I got a little beyond my comfort zone and at the same time had some other commitments.

Being a sensible fellow I decided to take some of the pressure off and release 3 of my pieces. A very tough choice! I did the business and three people got a very handsome deal & I lost about $1800.

I though regretful felt I had done the right thing. The next month I got a very good contract and there was no need to have sold anyway.

I am still kicking mad at myself 4 years later. Those pieces in the condition they were have proven to be quite irreplaceable. That`s life, you just don`t know what`s coming next and I only have myself to blame.

Last edited by Landser; 01/22/2012 11:29 PM.

War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
Landser #258340 01/23/2012 12:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,691
Offline
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,691
Most excellent!! John and Landser,,this is what I have been trying to say in a roundabout way...its really up to us as collectors to protect and educate ourselves,, and through mistakes,, is the only way we learn. No one person is born with full knowledge.


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
Skynyrd #258652 01/29/2012 12:36 AM
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,072
Offline
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,072
Originally Posted By: Skynyrd
On that note, Mr Gottlieb, kindly unsubscribe epoxy1@comcast.net from your frequent auction mailings. I don't care if you offer me Hitlers personal EK1 for $19.95 + shipping, I want nothing to do with the likes of you.


Before you fall off your high horse and collapse in a spasm of dealer-hate, consider that the ring still sits unsold. I'm sure if I was "asking" $15,000, I'd be an even worse human being. By the way, I was NOT the person who refused to buy a real FHH for $10,000! smile

I should put the ring in my next auction and see what the market value REALLY is so you can determine just how badly Mr. Sellick was "ripped off" by the secret dealer conspiracy. I'm sure if he'd listed it on GDC with the box, he would not have done much better.

Now, lets see how many pages we can make this thread last. Or, Ryan is welcomed to contact me and buy the ring back at a deep discount. It is obviously not selling, and I'd just as soon have it gone from my inventory.

Last edited by Craig Gottlieb; 01/29/2012 12:40 AM.

Craig Gottlieb
Founder, German Daggers Dot Com
www.cgmauctions.com
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
I am confused, the ring appears for sale on Spencer Victory's site and has for quite sometime now.....minus the box...one other thing..I was informed that when I purchased the ring that the name of the recipient was mis spelt as it appears on Don Boyle's certificate of authenticity. I was informed and the original listing did state that Don Boyle should issue a replacement certificate at no charge...when I spoke with Don (in person) he said that he had no such agreement arranged and that he should be consulted before such an offer is extended. Hence the certicate is still mis spelt to this day. I did not make a big deal out of this as the ring left my possession mere months after talking to Don at the Max show. I apologize for any tarnishing of reputations. I was not seeking restitution but rather was left with an incredibly bad taste in my mouth after learning of a pre existing business relationship between the two dealers, for whom I had the uptmost respect . This has since been reinforced by many respected members of this forum. Apparently this business relationship is known amongst dealers in the hobby. I was not aware of it at the time of our "transaction" regards

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
D
Offline
D
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
I have followed this thread as much as I can as well as others in the past relating to ethics and deals being done. This current thread is over $1,000. Period! Nothing more, nothing less. Sellick agreed to sell the ring back for $7,000. He needed the money more than he needed to hold on for "better times" and we have all been there for various reasons. Now we can talk about the narrow issue of whether this deal was "a done deal" or whether this was a deal with inspection period etc.,etc. and if not satisfied return, what ever. I will not try to solve that question here because that is where I personally don't have the information to make a decision and perhaps only the THREE parties involved do. Honor vs ethics vs business. But $1,000 is what Sellick is out. Buyer beware? Sure we all need to protect ourselves and learn as much as we can in this area or any other. I have said this once here and I will say it again. If I buy something that a dealer says is original and later it turns out it is not, and he really knew it was fake, then the moral and ethical failure is with the dealer, not me. I may have gotten hurt but the failure, the ethical failure is with the person who sold it. Not if he really believed it to be real. Of course proving that type of thing is always problematic. Here is a situation for you. I bought a cap perhaps 8+ years ago from one of the most well known dealers in the country. I got a document with it stating officially from this dealer that it was appraised to be original WW2. I have since had opinions to the effect that it is not. I offered to sell the cap back to the dealer because I want to change my interests and did not broach the subject of authenticity. He did not desire to purchase it back at any given price---- over stocked. Now I am willing to believe that he believed that the cap was real because he LEGALLY stuck his neck out and gave me a hard document certifying it. Now what happens next. If I can't sell the cap for the above stated reasons then I will have to approach the dealer and say here is the situation. Is he legally, morally or ethically obligated to take the cap back? Under my definition of honor, yes! But we will see what happens. I have not yet approached him. I will try not to put this in the court of public opinion yet but do the right thing and settle this privately if possible. If I can't then the internet is a powerful tool and the public could decide. Any thoughts on the last part?

Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,518
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,518
Sir, as a large dealer and you as a good customer, he should be obligated to help you out on returning the item. On an expensive item at least credit and some cash to offset the original sale. I once had to do this on a consigned piece and it killed me because the consignor had been longed paid, and now I was faced with handing over 6K out of my own pocket. A very hard lesson when doing consigned items.

JR #258751 01/29/2012 09:27 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,518
JR Offline
Offline
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 5,518
And on the other end of the spectrum, I to have come up short on consigning a couple items myself, and not getting what was agreed on initially by the dealer.

JR #258759 01/29/2012 10:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
Hi David, in my opinion the dealer that sold you the cap with supporting documentation has an obligation to accept the cap back at the price paid. Certainly authentic caps will have increased in value from 8 years ago. A respectable militaria dealer should have the same onus of responsibility as a fine antiques or art dealer. If you found out that the Picasso or Rembrandt etching that you purcahsed was fake and was mis represented we would all expect a refund of the original purchase price. If you purchased a Big Block numbers matching Corvette from Barret Jacksons or from any major collectible automobile dealer and later discovered that the engine block had been restamped would we all not be entitled to our money back? I am NOT a dealer but I have sold to Craig, Bill Shea and the two Toms, Paul Hogle, Bob Iqbal, Martin Stiles, Peter Whammond, Gerard Stezelberger, Barry Turk, David Farnsworth,Ivan Hillier and many members here and abroad. I have always stood by my items 100% for my lifetime...I have never had an issue. Now if a small time collector can honour such a guarantee why cant a multi million dollar dealer??? What is the cost of a reputation?? Yes I lost $7000.00 in 4 months. I expected that the item was priced at fair market value when I purchased with perhaps an increase for profit. Had I been made aware that the ring was priced at 40% or more above market I would not have purchased. In fact when I called about the ring I was told that there were many other inquiries concerning it. Funny that all of that "interest" evaporated once I purchased the ring. You are correct David, the only issue that I have is how I was misguided concerning the $1000.00.....I would accept a $1000.00 credit as compensation. This would make me happy. I will not purchase the ring back as I no longer have the ring box and I have sold off all of my SS collection.

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
P.S. dont get me wrong...I am not be-moaning the price paid....again, onus was on me to be an educated consumer although one likes to think that there is a semblance of a relationship between himself and the dealer, especially after concluding multiple purchases and deals. Perhaps I was naive to assume as much...cheers

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
D
Offline
D
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
Hi Sellick, you have every right to be upset that you may have paid too much for the ring or anything else for that matter but that is on you or me or whoever. That is market forces, sales pitch, no one to blame, the law of supply and demand. The dealer I bought the cap from back when I was new at this stuff, 10years ago it turns out, you mentioned in your list. I won't say anymore for now on who. I appreciate your thoughts on what you think he should do and I also thank JR who I know and respect. We will see how it plays out and will let the forum know. We all know dealers who will get huffy and challenge the fact that someone else says that something is not real and challenges then go back and forth. The truth is that real stuff always seems to stand out as real and in the end it is usually widely accepted. If two well known experts challenge my first dealer's opinion then it doesn't really matter what the original dealer believes because the cap is no longer MARKETABLE. It isn't that I or anyone will lose some money on the deal, the item has no value at all. I have to be able to sell it at some price. Sellick you mentioned big block corvettes. I have traded and had fun with the 63 to 67's since the 80's. I take a back seat to no one on knowledge of those. Many problems in this field now. If you buy at auction you have no way to know if a car is what it is represented to be. Most paperwork is bogus now and an engine block can be stamped so that no one and I mean no one can tell. So any dealer who says a car has numbers matching is saying it has correct numbers on the block etc.,but has no idea if it is the original motor. So you can't believe what any dealer says for the most part because he simply can't know unless there is real history back to day one. The ethical issues come into play here in that the dealer should say I believe it is original to the best of my knowledge but the truth is he may not be lying but he doesn't know. In the WW2 hobby it has not gotten to the point where fakes can fool everyone. If you certify something as real then you are saying it is. This doesn't mean I or anyone can or will get my money back or credit as JR suggested but it does mean that future transactions and certificates or evaluations by that particular dealer aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and honor and reputation are hard won and very difficult to get back once lost. David. PS If you buy a 1967 427/435 big block corvette and it is red or black it is bogus until proven otherwise. If it is green it has a chance to be real. Years of experience to learn that!!!

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,017
E
Offline
E
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,017
David...If you have two major dealer or expert respected collectors who say its bad then you should get your money back. As per Ryan i hate to say it but no one twisted him arm but i would be upset that it took a month to find out the second dealer didnt want it.

Last edited by Earl (Rick) Schreiber; 01/30/2012 05:24 AM.

Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. And remember the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
D
Offline
D
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 8
Thanks Rick for the opinion. David

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,091
Online Content
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,091
Originally Posted By: Craig Gottlieb
Originally Posted By: Skynyrd
On that note, Mr Gottlieb, kindly unsubscribe epoxy1@comcast.net from your frequent auction mailings. I don't care if you offer me Hitlers personal EK1 for $19.95 + shipping, I want nothing to do with the likes of you.


Before you fall off your high horse and collapse in a spasm of dealer-hate, consider that the ring still sits unsold. I'm sure if I was "asking" $15,000, I'd be an even worse human being. By the way, I was NOT the person who refused to buy a real FHH for $10,000! smile

I should put the ring in my next auction and see what the market value REALLY is so you can determine just how badly Mr. Sellick was "ripped off" by the secret dealer conspiracy. I'm sure if he'd listed it on GDC with the box, he would not have done much better.

Now, lets see how many pages we can make this thread last. Or, Ryan is welcomed to contact me and buy the ring back at a deep discount. It is obviously not selling, and I'd just as soon have it gone from my inventory.


The thread will last as long as anyone has anything relevant to say, unless it is prematurely clipped in the usual fashion.

With you Craig, it is more of a cumulative effect than anything. I, as many others, have followed many a thread concerning your shenanigans and rock bottom ethics ,, And while, granted, not everything negative said about you is entirely true, I think that the majority is.
Far be it from me to begrudge anyone wanting to make a profit ,,, But when you lose sight of all else, as you seem to have done, that is where I personally draw the line as far as having any dealings with a person like that.
You have some admirable traits, you have passion, you have done some good things for this hobby - But it just seems like one thing after the other with you.


Doug
Skynyrd #258813 01/31/2012 03:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
This was NEVER about over paying, paying too much or what have you. It was about optics if nothing else.....the way that this entire deal played out was just WRONG...original dealer contacted..states not interested...brokers deal with another dealer and states that other dealer will take it...just mail it to him...1 month later dealer not interested but no one bothers to tell me. I call original seller and he offers to purchase ring for substantially less..knows that I am stuck and now ring is out in California...had the ring still been in my possession I would not have accepted $6000.00 as I already turned it down previously and had I not been told that it was a done deal I would not have committed to a large purchase...dealer makes statement "I raped you" seller (me) finds out later that there is more than a friendship between two dealers involved...whether it be true or not optics and reputations are everything...ring box is now gone and ring appears on another dealer's site, profit has been made again...this is what upsets me...what would anyone think????...........Really?

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,038
Likes: 30
G
Offline
G
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,038
Likes: 30
your right...............

Last edited by Gaspare; 02/01/2012 05:46 AM.
Gaspare #259010 02/03/2012 02:19 AM
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,072
Offline
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 4,072
.

Last edited by Craig Gottlieb; 02/03/2012 02:21 AM.

Craig Gottlieb
Founder, German Daggers Dot Com
www.cgmauctions.com
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
I would like to set the record straight...there is a lot of "stuff" opinions or what have you circulating about on other sites...I am NOT a "newbie" I have been actively involved in this hobby since 1982.....I know my stuff...regardless of not posting pictures on GDC.....I did not "panic sell" this ring and box...I made a deal and as a result placed a sizeable downpayment on a desperately needed car, which was the reason for me selling the ring. Craig was the first person, dealer or otherwise that I contacted...I did this because he had originally sold me the ring just a few months previous and we had done "good business" in the past. I panic sold only after sending off the ring for a done deal, placing money down on a car and then finding out one month later that we had "no deal" By this time the ring was no longer in my possession and it would have taken awhile to have it sent back and attempt to sell again..I no longer had that luxury. Had I been desperate in the first place I would have accepted the original "low offer".... I did NOT buy the ring for an investment......I have flipped much in my hobby lifetime and I have done quite well!!! I have read, researched attended the past 18 Max and SOS shows, won display awards etc...and I have an impeccable reputation up my way....I bought the ring because I changed my collecting focus to SS and wanted an example...after talking to Craig and yes, buying his book I decided/was convinced that it was both a good purchase and a well priced ring...I be-moan none of this, that is not what this thread was about...and it was NEVER about bashing Craig...in hind sight I suppose I should have contacted him with what I had been told but I honestly was pretty peeved about it.....and still am...I have the right to believe what I do...I just thought that I woukld solicit some un-biased opinions. I thanks all of you who have taken the time to reply, all opinions are respected, whether supportive of me or not...that is what this was about..It is my hope that Craig and I can work out an amicable agreement...if not so be it.cheers, Ryan

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 731
Offline
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 731
Hi Ryan, I have seen this thread from the link posted from the latest ring thread http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=272069&page=2

Just wondered how you got on since your last statement from Febuary 2012 as you were hoping for an amicable agreement?

I've had to sell things at less than I have paid for them at times, it does ******** doesn't it. I feel for you thats a HUGE loss to take in such a short space of time. Having been through a divorce I know what sort of pressures that can load on you and I guess you found it hard to see straight and needed the money real fast. Think I would have given you 8k for the set pretty quickly though grin But in the same situation I might have done as you just to get the cash I needed in,fast.
Main thing is you will come again mate smile


Always buying Blood Orders.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
S
OP Offline
S
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,687
Likes: 3
Hi Jon, thanks for your kind words. I was in the midst of a separation at the time, unlike my ring and box I still have my wife. Craig had made some overtones to a remedy of sorts but since seeing Steve Wolfe's wife at Craig's table at the Max I have decided to have nothing more to do with him. For me the matter is closed. I no longer defend his name when other people bash him. I have heard too many storys. cheers and all the best! Ryan

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Popular Topics(Views)
2,207,116 SS Bayonets
1,703,527 Teno Insignia Set
1,071,752 westwall rings
Latest New Threads
SS dagger
by ollar - 10/16/2021 04:10 AM
SA Dagger, need experts opinion
by Vik L - 10/15/2021 08:48 AM
Manions was a dumping ground! Who now!!!!!!
by pvon - 10/13/2021 12:33 AM
Norway War and Bravery Medals War Cross
by JohnZ - 10/12/2021 06:27 PM
Get well Ron Weinand.
by pvon - 10/12/2021 03:29 PM
Latest New Posts
SA dagger hanger
by Skynyrd - 10/16/2021 06:40 PM
SS dagger
by ollar - 10/16/2021 05:48 AM
Norwegian Frontsoster
by JohnZ - 10/16/2021 03:18 AM
Quisling Cross - Tapper og Tro, Norway's EK
by JohnZ - 10/16/2021 03:17 AM
1st pattern skull and runes
by ado - 10/15/2021 11:37 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics30,909
Posts320,396
Members7,022
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
Who's Online Now
7 members (ado, DeCeCo, Vern, Billy G., wajjy, S.Wilson, Documentalist), 36 guests, and 79 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5