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#258052 01/19/2012 06:09 PM
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Reported as being marketed in the UK by a Russian dealer. Stamped J A Henckels, and similar outline to the Weyersberg type. If postwar they are a very convincing effort. What do you think?

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This is an original 55cm by Henckels that I owned thirty years back, it is of the Eickhorn pattern outline. The accoutrements were an add on by me.

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Very interesting Barry
It certainly looks good to me. These were made for such a very short time I don't think that standardized products were made. Yours, I definitely agree is all Eickhorn with the exception of the blade. Very likely Henckels bought the parts from Eickhorn for a special order. The 1st example has thin scabbard staples, where as Weyersberg tended use thick ones. All the components of these things were special so it certainly would take an ambitious faker to attempt one.
What do you see that leads you to believe it's suspect?

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Certainly appears authentic to me.

DONS #258076 01/19/2012 11:13 PM
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Hi Barry the only thing i can see that i don't like is the tang going right the way through the pommel,but i have not seen enough examples to know if this was standard practice on early DLV


Regards Sean
seany #258081 01/20/2012 12:21 AM
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The tang feeding through the pommel is exactly why I'm convinced this dagger is original. Early DLV's had the peened over tang on the pommel to prevent disassembly. The peen looks untouched. This method was used on other Imperial era daggers.

DONS #258082 01/20/2012 12:47 AM
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I see nothing wrong. If this is a fake we are in BIG trouble.


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Originally Posted By: Houston Coates
If this is a fake we are in BIG trouble.


Reported retail price asked by the Russian importer is, £3k ea. In hand they are mint in every respect, but appear to me to be artificially aged (except the leather covering which appears brand new). I said they were very convincing and invited opinions, thank you to everyone. I can offer no evidence of them being fake. Cautious by hard learned experience and just uneasy about them being sourced by a Russian dealer. I have seen three others of these in 12 months, all identical, they may be "right".

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Originally Posted By: lakesidetrader
Very interesting Barry
all Eickhorn with the exception of the blade.


The blade on the second dagger I show is in fact of the "Eickhorn" form with a pronounced ricasso, I believe the WKC entry was also of the "Eickhorn" form.

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Originally Posted By: Barry Brown
Originally Posted By: Houston Coates
If this is a fake we are in BIG trouble.


I have seen three others of these in 12 months, all identical, they may be "right".


These 3 daggers were in the UK. There is another identical example presently for sale on the Helmuut Weitze dealership site in Germany and priced @ 5500 euros.

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Can you give us a link to the Russian site?
I will watch for these at the show next month.

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Paul

I do not have an internet link to pass on to you but have seen these daggers displayed/offered (singly) by a Russian stallholder at a particular UK show I attend at Farnham. Their next show date is 5th Feb', will post any information arising.

Kind regards
Barry

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I remember when they first surfaced 4-5 years ago, mint as hell and very convincing. Supposedly 5 or 6 where found in an old fire department.
Too good to be true according to me.

Anyway, Tom Johnson said they where bad.

Kris

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A 55cm DLV Mint with like new leather and selling, or should I say asking, 3K BPS....and it stayed on the table? And they started showing up 5 years ago? And I guess they found nothing else in this 'old fire department' ?

Wasn't there also a thread here awhile back on some really good Postschutz daggers seeming to have roots into Russia?

Although I would need to see it 'in-hand' there is something here not right like it should be a $10,000 dagger if it was real. And they shouldn't be showing up all mint and recently.
Sort of reminds me of the similar Czech ground dug SSTK's.

Obviously Tom Johnson knew about them already.

Whomever is making these is also making the Postschutz and perhaps more. Great repro, very scary fakes indeed. shocked

-Serge-

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Over the past couple of years, went on sale a lot of dirks DLV55 Henckel manufacturer(During this time was about 10 dirks.). What has almost everything in a state of NM or M-. Although the book Wittmann No photo dirks this manufacturer only one mention of him as a producer. Most Henckel DLV55 for sale in the former Soviet Union and Europe. (Do you remember the topic about the theft of a dirk in the gun show.)
Very interesting photos provided Bari Brown. It is possible that the manufacturer ONLY used the same guard as Eickhorn. Quality fake which is on sale in Russia and Ukraine can often be identified only by comparing subjects with known originals. Often the production of copies of rare or dirks used pictures (Teno Leader scabbard), or photos are not the best quality. It is also not known of cut samples Henckel DLV55.


Nothing would argue just express version. If I'm wrong let more experienced colleagues, correct me.


Buy Casberg sketches.
den70 #258182 01/20/2012 09:01 PM
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Here's another one but stolen at a European show:

http://www.flandersmilitaria.be/index.ph...483&lang=EN

I think I had this one in my hand years ago and was for sale at 5000 euro. I passed smile

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Originally Posted By: kris simoens
Here's another one but stolen at a European show:

http://www.flandersmilitaria.be/index.ph...483&lang=EN

I think I had this one in my hand years ago and was for sale at 5000 euro. I passed smile



Seems like that's not the only fake Henckels in their stable.
http://www.flandersmilitaria.be/index.ph...=55&lang=EN

Or does someone here believe that one is period ?

Could we be uncovering a new 'east-block' fakes here with Henckels repros in different models?

-Serge-

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Gary needs to see this one.

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IF this DLV is a fake, I agree with the others that said that this would be a big problem for the hobby. IF they can make a fake as convincing as this, it's only a matter of time before they can make equally convincing Teno's, chained SS, diplomatic daggers or other rare pieces. For me this is the reason that I never buy ANY 5k+ dagger. The more expensive the dagger, the more effort the faker can put in to it, to make it the best possible fake.
Still hope the DLV that is shown turns out to be real wink

Danny

dr73 #258240 01/21/2012 01:43 PM
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Yet another example has been reported to me, in a PM, as being sold to a UK collector. The evidence remains circumstantial, but for me it is just too many examples of a rare dagger by the same maker "coming out" in a very short time line. A definite fake attribution needs to be discovered/disclosed so that collectors/dealers who have been hit can seek restitution. Please keep information coming to this forum, thank you.

dr73 #258255 01/21/2012 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: dr
IF this DLV is a fake, I agree with the others that said that this would be a big problem for the hobby. IF they can make a fake as convincing as this, it's only a matter of time before they can make equally convincing Teno's, chained SS, diplomatic daggers or other rare pieces.
....edit by serge.......

Danny


They are already. I know TeNo leaders for sure as I been given photos of those. Been told Postschutz but no photos. The source, or close to the source, sells them for around half what a real one goes for- but these pass for the authentic examples!

....and now I hear Tom Johnson is getting out, yes selling his business. Rumor I heard from 'reliable source'. If true, could it be because of this new generation of super fake daggers?

Serge

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Pictures can be very deceiving and it is very difficult to evaluate the authenticity of an artifact based on pics alone.
Personally, I wouldn't be worried about those "super fakes" and I'm convinced that none of these daggers would pass a "hand on" inspection, I mean none.

Concerning the state of the hobby, I would be very worried for those that are in only as an investment strategy, the morning after could be pretty sad.
I honestly don't think that it will get to the state it once was. Dealers and collectors alike, including myself, have caused great damage to this hobby.
Damage ? Yes, by agreeing to pay these crazy inflated prices asked by dealers.

What happens when a dealer get's out of business, those his COA still stands for something or do we just throw it in the garbage can ??????? wink

patrice #258269 01/21/2012 08:00 PM
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The prices of the rare daggers have gone "sky-high" over the last say 10 or 15 years. I certainly would't look at these daggers as a great investment-oportunity now. They were 15 years ago grin

Danny

dr73 #258301 01/22/2012 11:18 AM
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Just to clear up what Serge has posted a link to, the short Henckels hunting dagger is completely 100% real, there are a few about like that one, I own two of them and they are listed in the Henckels catalouges, they come in various lengths and made in different materials, I've seen both the blued steel and gilded brass finishes.

Cheers

Gary

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Baz69 #258307 01/22/2012 01:31 PM
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This is very scary…
I remember about 2 years ago I saw a few SS daggers coming our of the Czech Rep. which were very very convincing…

I hate to repeat myself again and again, but there is too much money in this hobby.
Too much temptation to make high quality fakes.

If this is true, it is a sad day for us.

Careful hunting,
Johnny


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Baz69 #258362 01/23/2012 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: Baz69
Just to clear up what Serge has posted a link to, the short Henckels hunting dagger is completely 100% real, there are a few about like that one, I own two of them and they are listed in the Henckels catalouges, they come in various lengths and made in different materials, I've seen both the blued steel and gilded brass finishes.

Cheers

Gary


Gary,
To me it looks of recent manufacture.
It also looks to me as there are etch imbalances that should not be seen like this in a period etch, or am I perhaps mistaken?

-Serge



Image taken from 'Flanders Militaria' and posted under 'Fair Use' provisions.

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I dont know guys that DLV looks good to me but Pats right you really need it in hand. But if you think about it to manufacture something like that cant be cheap, it not something you can whittle up in your garage.I wouldnt think it would be cost effective. As per the hunting dagger is henckels currently in business. i know some companys are still in business and manufacturing third reich daggers that didnt have the swaz on them.

Last edited by Earl (Rick) Schreiber; 01/23/2012 06:32 PM.

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Honesty, for me this is pretty terrifying…
It is only a question of time before the value of these daggers justifies the labor and materials needed to make a "superfake".

Look, we all like to believe that daggers are somehow different from badges, and TK rings, but it is just more parts. Just because daggers are more complex does not mean that they are not "fakable".

It is just a question of "is it worth it" to the fakers.
I just think we may be deluding ourselves to think that cottage makers in the TR period, with 1930s technology, war shortages, material rationing and bombs dropping around their heads were able to create something so special that a well funded Czech artisan could not create today. Have you seen the incredible hand-work on the guns that they make!?!?

I cannot help but wonder if, one day, everything in this hobby is going to be like SA Rohm daggers and TK rings are now:
If you buy a Rohm, you need a Gailen COA (I have one!), if you buy a TK ring, you need a Boyle signature.

Maybe it´s happening already, maybe the buyer of that hunting dagger up there will ask Gary for a COA... Makes some sense.

In another 10 years will we be seeking out THE authority in each various dagger category for a COA to CYA? wink
I call "dibbs" on NSFK. laugh

Just a thought…

Johnny


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An then how long would it be before the COA s are faked ? . I personaly think that this hobby is finished as an investment , Fine by me .maybe we can get back to the basics an enjoying the items an books that go with them . prices are well over inflated an some of the major dealers are in denial TW for one ,, $1400 for a Army Dagger the mind boggles ???? A old collector once said to me " the dealers have taken a nice hobby an turned it into Big Business " Enough said ! sick

ROB B #258378 01/23/2012 06:26 PM
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I want to be as clear as I can about this next statement,

"The short Henckels hunting dagger that is shown above is 100% from the Weimar period"

Nothing more to say on it, please do not try to lump this particular dagger into the melting pot because it is also a Henckels and it is also on that Website.
I'm going to say it again so everybody knows

"The short Henckels hunting dagger that is shown above is 100% from the Weimar period"

Thanks

Gary

Baz69 #258380 01/23/2012 06:58 PM
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Hey Gary,

If you are referring to my post, I did not question this piece, just posting a hypothetical.
I was just using that hunting piece as an example. It was a convenient reference point since it was sitting a few posts above.

Perhaps it was a bad example, but my point remains the same. With values high enough, and fakes good enough, we will have to increasingly rely upon expert opinions and COAs just to sleep at night.

This is not about that hunting dagger, this is about all daggers…

All the best,
Johnny


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Well before we all it the panic button I think one needs to be looked at in hand. I agree it sure is suspicious that a few have just popped up as of late. But we also know that medal collectors are aware of a few "hordes" of original mint medals found in the last several years. As I say, I will be on the look-out at the SOS. Would be great if one of our Russian participants could contact the Russian dealer. Perhaps he would even be willing to engage in conversation here or on one of the Russian Forums.

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I remember a few years back Harvey Riley telling me and a mate about a stash (i think 7 or 8 ) of diplomat daggers found in a Russian scrap yard they had to be disassembled and smuggled out in pieces,then reassembled once out of the country,i think he had 2 or 3 of them at the time.so you never know.


Regards Sean
ROB B #258392 01/23/2012 11:03 PM
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In my honest opinion,

This is the way I see it. If your a dealer, and you only sell Army daggers. You have 2 choices. You can have a website with pictures of your expensive daggers you sell, or you can have a website with inexpensive daggers with nothing on it.

It's not like every other day someone walks into your place of business with 5 or 6 Army daggers for sale. So the supply to a degree is limited. So as a businessman you slowly increase your prices until you reach a happy medium of inventory and no empty shelves.

If these dealers sold these Army daggers for $400.00 and $500.00 the shelves would be empty and there would be a waiting list a mile long.

I believe it was Pat that said, we as collectors are the ones that did the damage to this hobby by paying the inflated prices. We're all guilty of it. I looked for a police officer sword for over a year and finally bought one from Tom Johnson for I think $1395.00, I thought it was a good price. I think it's still listed as sold on his site.

I do think some of the dealers got out of hand with their inflated prices however it is what the market will bear, because trust me if we all got together and stopped buying from the dealers the prices will come down or they would go out of business.

The only problem with that scenario is the big dealers already made their money and this would only hurt the smaller dealers. It's kind of like this recession we're all in together, it's not hurting the 1% of the U.S. population that controls like 41% of the money/wealth.

Before I end this I would like to say that I agree 100% hands down with Pat also when he said "I wouldn't be worried about those "super fakes" and I'm convinced that none of these daggers would pass a "hand on" inspection, I mean none". I truly believe that.

Just my two cents.

Thanks

Rich

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Johnny

My post is not directed at you at all, I don't want to see things lumped together to try and make a spurious case for a new breed of fakes using the Henckels logo, I can see no proof in this at all, I personally have inspected the Henckels dagger that Barry started this thread about and I have no problems with it at all, though I must say that I am no expert in these type of daggers and when I inspected it I did not know what the dealer was asking for it. I do not see a problem either that there has been a few Henckels long DLV's around lately, why couldn't it be pure co-incidence, as much that as anything else I think.

Gary

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Returning to the purpose of this thread: I have not seen a 55cm DLV by Eickhorn in the Weyersberg design, nor have I seen a Weyersberg 55cm DLV in the Eickhorn design. They may exist, and it would be helpful if members could comment. However, I question that any manufacturer would have incurred the tooling up expense to produce such a limited run dagger in both designs. The Henckels 55cm that I acquired for my collection in 1979 was of the Eickhorn design; I did not see another Henckels 55cm until the recent crop now available in the Weyersberg outline. As was stated in an early posting, Wittmann lists but does not picture a Henckels 55cm in his Luft' book. The 55cm DLV used to be considered one of the rarest of the production daggers, not often available to collectors. Anything, e.g., "last out of the factory cellars discovery", is both possible and explainable, of course.

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Barry.. As far as i can tell all they have to retool is the pommel and crossguard and i bet if other companys already had them they could buy them from them or buy those parts from those companys.


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Totally agree with Barry. Short production period, the Order of the new length (cutting), a rare producer for that type of daggers. And now we have a lot of full Henckel in excellent condition.

Is it possible that members of the community to check their collections, certainly someone that is daggers or good pictures (like Barry) Henckel DLV55 (full or cut) that he purchased long year ago, for more informations.


Buy Casberg sketches.
den70 #258455 01/25/2012 01:39 AM
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Where are you getting lots of them. As far as i can tell from this thread we are talking 6-7 of them.What does concern me is the condition of them. Only time will tell how many are out there.


Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. And remember the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Why purchased different guards for one model, for short time. Not sense for busines. I think Henckel used only one type guard Eickhorn or Wyersberg.


Buy Casberg sketches.
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