UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum C&J Lionhead

Snagged this girl from another forums e-stand. Price was right, condition is excellent, and I need the lionhead counterpart to this particular C&J model.

Aluminum hilted, gold colored gilt rates NM, a very nice piece overall.

2

Dovehead and Lionhead counterparts. Both are unmarked examples, but areidentified by their recognizeable Clemen and Jung distinctive obverse langets, and their plain, flat reverse langets.

Congrats,shes a beauty

Very nice! Just the right abount of wear on the aluminum hilt.

Thanks fellas.

I've been taking advantage in the dip in the economy to add some nice pieces here and there. I havn't spent over $400 on a piece in quite some time.

Tom

Tom, Very very, nice look sword!! And yes your are right, its a great time to add things to the collection.

Great score Tommy!

that is a real beauty ... congrats my friend

cheers,
Ibrahim

Thank you again friends for the nice words.

What's so cool about these C&J pieces, while not rare, are somewhat scarce and don't hit the markets to the degree in which other sabers do. The workmanship is quite high, though not paramount, and they retain a clean, classy, and edgy appearance. Both of these examples have the distinctive plain jane reverse langet. No embellishment what-so-ever, which is a trait not that common on TR era Heer pattern sabers.

Tom

It's a pretty sword but I don't care for them scrubbed and polished like that ..

Mike

Mike-

This particular saber wasn't. It's critical to examine the hilts base material, in relation to the degree in which the gilting is intact. As we know, aluminum hilted examples retained their gold colored gilting much more so than did their brass hilted counterparts. This piece is in it's color, condition, and so on it has been (I assume) since the day it was liberated. If we see a brass hilted example, with completely shiny hilt material, I then would assume that piece had been mollested as the fact remains, brass oxidizes, expecially when it's devoid of it's gilt barrier.

In short, this one hasn't been cleaned..only preserved now. It appears nearly as it did when it rolled out of the GI's ruck sack.

Beside the prima facia appearance of the saber hilt, it's incumbant to study the piece in it's totality. Ordinarily, key indicators include the grip wire, the blade, scabbard and so forth. In concert, the study of these key elements can make ascertaining if a piece has been cleaned much easier. However, in this case, since the hilt is an aluminum composite, we can say with strong certainty the piece retains it's coloring and condition (as it relates to the hilt) that it has since the '40s. If it were brass hilted, and shiny brass, then the natural assumption is that the piece would have been cleaned. Brass oxidizes at a rapid rate, dependant on environmental conditions. With the gilt barried devoid on a piece, that brass will oxidize rapidly, and one would not expect to find it shiny if in unmoleted condition. Again though, we're talking apples and oranges with relation to hilt material.

************You will note however, the uppermost rung of grip wire has been cleaned...by yours truly. Upon arrival, the example was complete with post-war drops of glossy indoor paint. It had been on the grip for quite some time. Naturally, the paint drops had to be removed, and with the removal, the oxidation on that rungs grip wire dissappeared as well.

The photo below illustrates both C&J examples...the dove in brass-alloy, the lion in aluminum alloy. Note the differences in color, texture, and so on with regards to the gilt. Different application techniques were neccessary during the gilting process when the swordsmiths were working with different base materials. It's evidenced by the final products.
Tom

I enjoyed your dissertation .. It seems to be directed more toward amateurs. I've been collecting edged weapons for twenty-five years and I know a cleaned up, polished sword when I see one. Not that a cleaned up sword is bad thing, I personally don't care for them.


Mike W.

Tommy,very well spoken.
MOST,but not all of the aluminum hilted swords have an anodized finish.
That`s why they retain that "prima facia" look.

quote:

Originally posted by MW:
It's a pretty sword but I don't care for them scrubbed and polished like that ..

Mike

Cleaning, and the amount thereof, really is a matter of personal preference.

I just posted a sword that I cleaned rather heavily and showed the before and after shots.
http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/...17092573/m/676109843

I tend to look at each sword individually and decide what I want to clean and how much before I ever start. Most of my swords get some cleaning and conservation, which is different than restoration and a different subject all together.

Anyway, I almost always remove any active rust, grime, and foreign matter from my swords. I almost always clean and polish bare steel or plated blades to protect them. Tarnish is another issue and sometimes I remove it and sometimes I leave it alone depending upon how it looks. Most cleaned swords will tone down in six months or so and I let them all do just that. I tend to clean my swords to some degree when they come into the collection just to make certain there is no active corrosion and I think they look better clean (my personal preference). I then generally leave them alone to tone and age gracefully and don't clean them again unless there is a problem that pops up.

George

With lots of gilt and laquer left, they look great cleaned up with the sudsy!!

It's absolutely a matter of personal taste..and periodically a neccessity. I almost exclusively will "clean" brass hilted pieces, to one degree or another..even if it merely involves cleaning of 3% of the hilt with an ultra light sudsy concoction. Aluminum/zinc alloy pieces, typically not. Generally no need to. Generally no reason to. Though a very light coat of museum grade wax is applied on each piece.

I've got some aluminum pieces straight out of the "woodwork" which I am absolutely certain (99% since 100% knowledge is not possible) were not "fiddled" with. They look like mint, shiny new nickels.

"It's absolutely a matter of personal taste."

That is true! I, for the most part, agree with George's philosophy, if I see a situation that requires attention such as active corrosion, I will take whatever measures are necessary to correct the problem. I try to leave the item as unmolested as possible.

There are certainly situations that require considerably more effort, like George's new WKC Nr.290 Thüringer Polizei-Säbel. That one certainly was crying for a face lift and it turned out quite nice.. A little shiny for me, but like George said, it will tone down in a few months.

Other than light maintenance wherever required, (mainly the blades) I have a strict hands off policy .. All of my stuff is displayed in a climate controlled room and the blades are inspected bi-monthly.

I'm not a bargain shopper, so my acquisitions are usually always in top condition and seldom require any maintenance at all ..

all the best ..

Mike W.