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Just got one with only the "Waffen-Loesche/Berlin" marking. Nothing else. Clip (double edge) point. Never had one like that before. Vet direct buy with two cheesy late 2nd Lufts (one no name and a "Seigfried") both with knots no hangers. Thoughts? I would post pictures but the files are two big. Doug

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Like to see them all! I can help you with those "cheesy" Lufts! Kevin.


It's ALL in the DETAILS!!.......
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I posted pictures here. Mine has no "Ch.A.W.", "H" on the back of the blade or any number. Doug

http://warrelics.eu/forum/daggers-swords-3-reich/luftwaffe-forestry-nco-dagger-89141/#post341769

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'German Military Fighting Knives 1914-1945'
Lists one description as:

Waffen -Loesche Berlin on one side and Ch.A.W. on the other.

And, that they are seen made by several makers marks to include Eickhorn and WKC.

It mentions reproduction proofmarks as being poorly struck and/or too light, and/or uneven.

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Never having seen one before after collecting this stuff for nearly 50 years, I was starting to think that these are really something special. Then the first few numbers on them that I saw were under 200 adding to the whole rare thing in my mind. Then I saw one with a serial number of nearly 500 with an "A" attached. Now you tell me that there were several makers. Well, now I am wondering why I haven't seen any of these before? Of course there are fakes. They fake this stuff like crazy. Both the source and the condition lead me to believe that this one is real. What I am really wondering though is why this one only has the distributor marking and nothing else? It seems that all of the others have the "H" on the spine, "Ch.A.W." and some number that mine does not. Didn't Goering run the Forestry organization along with the Luftwaffe? Maybe there is a connection there? Like Himmler running both the SS and the Police and transferring guys back and forth between them. Doug
Originally Posted By: Gaspare
'German Military Fighting Knives 1914-1945'
Lists one description as:

Waffen -Loesche Berlin on one side and Ch.A.W. on the other.

And, that they are seen made by several makers marks to include Eickhorn and WKC.

It mentions reproduction proofmarks as being poorly struck and/or too light, and/or uneven.

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I have never seen a fake of this piece. They are not all marked the same. I have never seen a WKC-just one Eickhorn-and no other maker except for WL/chaw. Also there is no proof they have anything to do with the Luftwaffe.


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Gaspare and Houston:

Darn it, another Eickhorn for me to look for.

John


Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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Thanks for your comment. Nice to know that you have never seen a fake of these. I'm not a dagger guy and don't know much about them generally. They are kind of a by catch for me. I am just repeating what I saw on Johnson's web sight. I wonder how Anthony Carter came to this conclusion? I guess we will never know? Doug

Luftwaffe Forestry "Waffen-Loesche" Bayonet w/Frog. Ch.A.W., (Chromolit-Besteckfabrik, Arthur Wingen, Solingen) TM. As stated on page 91 of The Sword and Knife Makers of Germany 1850-2000 by the late Anthony Carter, "Staghorn gripped knives were produced marked Ch.A.W. on one side, and Waffen-Loesche Berlin (qv), the distributor, on the reverse. These knives are said to have been worn by Luftwaffe NCO's seconded to forestry duties". A photograph and description of this pattern bayonet appear on pages 176 & 177 of Seitengewehr: History of the German Bayonet 1919-1945 by George T. Wheeler. Polished steel hilt, spine and flat, oval crossguard show virtually no surface wear and no damage. Medium brown stag grip plates are perfect with no cracks or chips and are retained by three nickel slotted screw bolts. Polished steel blade measuring 20cm in length grades Near MINT showing only faint runner marks with no lifting, graying, nicks or damage. Reverse ricasso is distributor stamped, "Waffen-Loesche, Berlin" and is complete with dark brown leather blade buffer pad. The obverse ricasso is stamped with the number "41" above the trademark and the spine of the blade stamped with the letter "H". Dent-free steel scabbard retains approximately 98% of the original black enamel showing minor surface speckling, primarily to the reverse, with a small spot of wear to the lower obverse/reverse and to the lower ball. Bayonet is complete with brown leather, double-stitched frog in EX++ condition. Superb bayonet with only minor wear to the scabbard. EX++/Near MINT (25712) $1,250. SOLD

Originally Posted By: Houston Coates
I have never seen a fake of this piece. They are not all marked the same. I have never seen a WKC-just one Eickhorn-and no other maker except for WL/chaw. Also there is no proof they have anything to do with the Luftwaffe.

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Hi Houston there are many fakes of these about, world wide arms here in the UK used to sell them about 10-15 years back i will try and locate one of their catalogues


Regards Sean
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Interesting-never seen one in the states


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When I was into fighting knifes I looked in to these a bit..
Waffen - Loesche in Berln was just a retailer and the majority were just marked such,,but there are others with the actual maker on them..
The copies have been seen here in the US since the 1970s..

Here's a great topic with some nice views!

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34820



*+

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WOW! Thanks Doug
Originally Posted By: Gaspare
When I was into fighting knifes I looked in to these a bit..
Waffen - Loesche in Berln was just a retailer and the majority were just marked such,,but there are others with the actual maker on them..
The copies have been seen here in the US since the 1970s..

Here's a great topic with some nice views!

http://phpstack-500133-1583587.cloudwaysapps.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34820



*+

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At now I know it is not worth $750. http://www.ebay.com/itm/150650088718?ssPageName=STRK:MEUSX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1562.l2649 Thanks again guys. Doug

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So--Where is a photo of a fake?


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Originally Posted By: Houston Coates
So--Where is a photo of a fake?
Yeah! Doug

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Houston,
Do you know the story of how or why this knife became associated with the Luftwaffe Forestry. Did such an organization exist during the period and what are your thoughts on this knife? Could it be just one of the many outdoor knifes we see manufactured during the period. Thanks.
Going by memory on this and will find my source if need be, but I'm pretty sure that the Heer or an organization with in it was given permission to hunt and chop down trees by the Reichs Jagermeister. Even so, no proof that this knife was authorized or adopted by anyone, correct?

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More pics of handle http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/daggers-sw...1-2/#post349585 Looks like the thicker side grip panel is pulling away a bit on the top? Doug

Last edited by DouglasKerley; 08/29/2011 04:18 PM.
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I don't know who tagged this knife as Luftwaffe Forestry or exactly why but if I recall someone got one from someone who belonged to that organization.Also, sometimes they will be found with Luft marked frogs. Pretty thin IMO. Both the Army and the Luftwaffe had forestry organizations to manage the forests on their land-air bases. There also was a private forestry organization that managed private lands and the National forestry for National lands. Each had different collar tabs and shoulder boards but the same daggers and knots ,although sometimes the Luft and Army Officers would wear their dagger knots with the hirschfanger. The knife seems to be an issue piece in at least some cases as some are numbered-some having two numbers indicating two issues. Some are also stamped H which could mean "Heer" or something else. The forestry organization is quite a bit more complex than one might think.


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I thought maybe just maybe:

Carinhall loaner pig stickers for guests on hunts!

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Just now I have way to many TR daggers on my gun show table. I am way far from an expert on daggers but know enough to stay away from anything that is the slightest bit suspect. I just loved the source being the vet who brought these back. But, I am a student of this stuff and really like to add to the knowledge base of the collecting community. I see a number of these out there with the additional markings that mine does not have of "Ch.A.W." and a number-letter combination on the reverse of the blade and an "H" on the spine. Just because of that mine is a bit unusual but perhaps of less interest. I suppose that someone could of just popped into the distributor and plunked down his RMs and walked out with mine. But the ones with the additional markings appear to be some sort of an "issue piece" for something or another.

On its face this dagger-bayonet or whatever is period and scarce with the additional markings added but without the markings added it would appear to be previously unknown. Is that the case? What does mine tell us about the others? I find it a little hard to believe that the "Ch.A.W." and the "H" were added after the blade was hardened. That would be real hard on the dies. But, seeing mine without the markings perhaps all the others were marked after hardening? Perhaps owners of the others could check out the markings on theirs and contrast and compare the markings to see if they are different in impact on the blade? Perhaps lighter-more shallow or upwelled less or otherwise different from the distributors marking? If so, perhaps the additional markings are post production at the issuer or user level?

You say that someone got one from the person to whom it was issued? Well, you can't get a better source than that. Is it possible to nail that story down at this late date? Are there any period pictures of this in wear? Sure, finding one or two with Luftwaffe marked frogs is not indicative of anything. But of all the frogs I have seen over the last half a century I am fairly certain that only a very very small percentage are Luftwaffe marked. (It so happens that I really like TR brown leather and have retained several Luftwaffe marked belts, pouches and frogs over the years as somewhat amusing.) Sadly, the vet who had these tossed the two hangers for the two Second Lufts and moved the knots down to the scabbard to mount these on a display board of his. He did not get a frog with the dagger-bayonet so I have not added or removed one.

I am fascinated by the possibility that there may be some sort of Goering-Luftwaffe-Forestry Service-NCO-seconded connection with these. We can only hope that the future will bring some more light on this. Thanks, Douglas Kerley



Originally Posted By: Houston Coates
I don't know who tagged this knife as Luftwaffe Forestry or exactly why but if I recall someone got one from someone who belonged to that organization.Also, sometimes they will be found with Luft marked frogs. Pretty thin IMO. Both the Army and the Luftwaffe had forestry organizations to manage the forests on their land-air bases. There also was a private forestry organization that managed private lands and the National forestry for National lands. Each had different collar tabs and shoulder boards but the same daggers and knots ,although sometimes the Luft and Army Officers would wear their dagger knots with the hirschfanger. The knife seems to be an issue piece in at least some cases as some are numbered-some having two numbers indicating two issues. Some are also stamped H which could mean "Heer" or something else. The forestry organization is quite a bit more complex than one might think.

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I just pulled this off the web. Please forgive the Google Translate. http://militaria-archiv.com/archive/index.php/t-81957.html Doug

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Archive Militaria> Militaria Forum 1918 - 1945> Edged Weapons> Bayonets / Bayonets> funny knife as a gift from the thick Hermann?
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View Full Version this page: comic knife as a gift from the thick Hermann?
Waa1974
18.03.2007, 14:38
Hello
I have just one blade not quite plausible given by a neighbor. You collect it but ollen Krempell she said. Come on men young men rin. She gave me this knife with sheath and belt shoe. She said this part would then get their man of the Göring, his time as one of his foresters / hunter. Well thought can, I talk, a lot. The knife. Unbefummelter original condition. Stempell the blade: Ch AW THERE side: weapons - Loesche Berlin. Back of the blade: H serial number 384th The same number can also be seen in the vagina. The "H" on the back of the blade coupling is also repeated on the rear shoe. She said it had been given only a few hundred of them. Now here are the pros demand. Wood pigeon or scrap?
Mfg. Waa
Waa1974
18.03.2007, 14:39
More photos
Waa
katt
18.03.2007, 15:14
Hello, I once had something similar but without the nice Geschichte.Da Jaeger had from his old Ausgehbajo NEN Hirschfaenger tinkered saw your part ....
very similar ....
Gruss Katt
Waa1974
18.03.2007, 16:42
Hello
I just heard from a fellow collector that it should have actually given something, but look like the parts he did not. A umgefuckeltes entertainment it should not be, because the shape of the blood flow channel (ie the real way?) Is a completely different.
Let's see whether there who knows what.
Waa
Muspelsurt
18.03.2007, 16:54
looks more like a kind of dagger-grave.
Awarding of the göring I can not imagine me personally they're much too simple. also lacks something of an uncharacteristic dedication matters for granted.
Reibert
18.03.2007, 17:14
If I can just quickly look at the times and the blade guard, then see 'a knife fight Austrian Model 1917

PS: Looks for me as well-built from ............
Waa1974
18.03.2007, 17:34
If I can just quickly look at the times and the blade guard, then see 'a knife fight Austrian Model 1917

PS: Looks for me as well-built from ............

Austro from Berlin?
Waa: confused:
Robbers
18.03.2007, 17:55
Hello
I have just one blade not quite plausible given by a neighbor. You collect it but ollen Krempell she said. Come on men young men rin. She gave me this knife with sheath and belt shoe. She said this part would then get their man of the Göring, his time as one of his foresters / hunter. Well thought can, I talk, a lot. The knife. Unbefummelter original condition. Stempell the blade: Ch AW THERE side: weapons - Loesche Berlin. Back of the blade: H serial number 384th The same number can also be seen in the vagina. The "H" on the back of the blade coupling is also repeated on the rear shoe. She said it had been given only a few hundred of them. Now here are the pros demand. Wood pigeon or scrap?
Mfg. Waa

hi have also such a part, but was turned into class for me, for seeking to wounded wild, it seems your have been rebuilt,
Reibert
18.03.2007, 17:58
Austro from Berlin?
Waa: confused:

Said yes, "when I look fast."
The stamps have I seen very well.

Have yourself a übrigends Austrian infantry saber from the First World War with a blade made in Solingen, and with the stamp of a Hungarian merchant's ......................

I believe at least not that we are dealing with the present piece is a weapon in the Blank "original composition".

Vcht. looking 'I think later on in Johnson's, vcht. find'ich still something.

Greetings, Reibert
Waa1974
18.03.2007, 18:01
Hello
# First of all thanks to you.
if you still BWAS finds out, please notify us. Toss and turn even the www. but find nothing comparable.
Waa
Swede
18.03.2007, 18:23
Moin together,
funny, just this knife, we had already studied at the forum.
See here: http://www.militaria-fundforum.de/showthread.php?t=34118&highlight=loesche+berlin
Gruss Swede
Waa1974
18.03.2007, 18:28
Hello
I'm going crazy. That's exactly the part. I will anhauen my neighbor. The language in part by the fact that her husband comes to the Mohne lived (since when the live here, have no idea, only freshly drawn here). Warstein is the Mohne (Taalsperre with us)
But now I am weird.
Waa
Muspelsurt
18.03.2007, 19:21
be glad you seem to have managed to get something rare, and as far as I can tell from the pictures it looks original:) congratulations
Waa1974
18.03.2007, 19:36
Hello
I'm basically too, but I still do not understand the relationship so real.
But I find out where I have a hunch.
Waa
Juvavum
18.03.2007, 20:11
You own an original and extremely rare side-arm of the Air Force for forest officials,

Congratulations and greetings Emil
trooper
19.03.2007, 10:16
Hello! In the above-comic it is a knife-bayonet ordonnanzmässiges for forestry officials. As evidence I cite the following literature, History of the Deutsch Bayonet 1919-1945 by George T. Wheeler. Unfortunately, this book is only available in English. As I said, knowledge is power, know nothing makes nothing. MfG.
AndyB
19.03.2007, 11:29
Yes this time the woman has had her story right. It is very nice Stueck.alles good, Andy
Waa1974
20.03.2007, 13:23
Hello
Thanks to all who have helped me get over what part in the experience. Super.
Waa
Bigpen
20.03.2007, 14:53
The super part is sold on Sunday, it's just a shame
the "you come up with such stories must be"

Had I known the salesman for it would give away "small"
It would be long in my possession!

Just spoke with the seller and expressed my displeasure to him.
Normally I'm with him in the first place, if he has to sell something.

So always nice to stay with the truth ... (Carsten)

Greeting

Bigpen
Waa1974
20.03.2007, 15:02
The super part is sold on Sunday, it's just a shame
the "you come up with such stories must be"

Had I known the salesman for it would give away "small"
It would be long in my possession!

Just spoke with the seller and expressed my displeasure to him.
Normally I'm with him in the first place, if he has to sell something.

So always nice to stay with the truth ... (Carsten)

Greeting

Bigpen

If they think the truth is always such a thing, is not it .... Mr. Luk Oerlinghauser from the beautiful Heath.
Waa
Bigpen
20.03.2007, 15:24
I'm not Mr. Luk ... from the pagan Oerlinghauser
but am still 50 km away to the north-west ...

although I am Mr. Luk ... well known.

I've been using your "neighbor" has often shops
made.

Greetings and cheers for the "old values"

Bigpen
Waa1974
21.03.2007, 13:29
Hello
I've spoken with Big.P, everything was different. I also apologize that I have tried to expose him here by name. Was it all a misunderstanding.
Waa
Bigpen
21.03.2007, 20:26
We are all just "people" and "collector" misunderstandings occur every day.

We are among us "Patorentöchtern" stick to the facts and the "old values"

(It is a service-side weapon, carried by the Forestry Department
the Air Force.
The reason why the German Luftwaffe during the Second World War,
responsibility for certain tasks took over forest is unknown, but
It is possible, which has borne Hermann Göring as head of the LW and avid hunters ensure that Air Force personnel was transferred to the pleasant task of supervising certain forests.
The blade is that of the ordinary, the uniform belonging carbine bayonet, the handles are made of deer horn. The Masser has no Aufpflanzvorrichtung.
The scabbard is made of black enamelled steel. )
Source: COMBAT KNIFE F.J. Stephens

As mother says Beimer: "Everything is good!"

Congratulations for the great part.

Greeting

Bigpen

Last edited by DouglasKerley; 09/02/2011 12:00 AM.
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