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Manxman Offline OP
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Please have a look at this dagger

http://www.lakesidetrader.com/pics/Ss-280d.jpg

To me it looks beautifull but I'm aware that some historic value is lost in a sense by reconditioning a piece. Paul is straight down the line about the work which has been done on this one which includes re-anodising and lacquering of the scabbard, cleaning, and replacement of a couple of connectors.

I am a new collector and I am aware that untouched early 36s are the best of the chained daggers to go for. I want something that will hold its value over 10-20 years and wont cause too many problems when it comes to selling it on. I am also aware that reconditioning is a contraversial area. Any thoughts about this dagger and reconditing please? I love the look of it!

Here is Paul's description;

Type II Chained SS
"Here's an absolute beauty that any collector would be proud to own. The blade is a superior example that has been cleaned and lost some of it's crossgrain. It retains it's original length and perfect tip and no sharpening. Look at the motto, nice and black! I rate this an easy Exc+/Exc++. The hilt fittings are all early nickel and well fit. All the angles are correct. The wood is in fine shape being chip and crack-free with some normal small marks from normal wear and rubbing. The perfectly fit eagle is a nickel version and the runes have 100% enamel. The scabbard has an anodized finish and is dent -free. The finish has been redone and lacquered. The scabbard fittings are all early nickel. The ball is perfect. The chain is early nickel Type II with burnish to the backgrounds. Nice details are all there, right down to the individual teeth. The correct first upper link is SS marked. The top 2 connectors have been professionally replaced. I have taken great care here guys to tell you all the restoration work done to this thing. Nicely finishing this is an original portepee. This is a beauty piece and if you can live with the work done and fully disclosed you got yourself a bargain! Overall Exc++
$6995

More pics.....
http://lakesidetrader.com/pics/SS-280dd.jpg

Last edited by Manxman; 07/09/2011 01:03 AM.
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Paul always seems to be a straight up guy when it comes to this stuff! With that said, a reconditioned piece will never, at least to me, hold the value a "naturally" nice piece will. While it is still a desirable configuration....outside of the "anodized" scabbard, I don't think it will ever be as easy to sell apart from price, it greatly limits the market to who wants such a piece in there collection. If your worried about investment value, I don't think just because its worked on, that it will lose or never increase in value, but probably not to the same degree as better ones. In the end, if you like it, and you don't want to/can't afford an untouched m36, go for it.


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btw, I'm a "newer" collector too, and anytime I have bought something that wasnt the best I could find, despite price, I've always ended up wanting to and eventually upgrading it....just my insight.


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Thanks Wunderkind. How does a dagger like this differ from a 'parts dagger'? I guess I would be buying this as a centr piece in a collection of 3. I have purchased a nice partial Romh which has great hitoric value. My aim is to one day get a decent Himmler, and the piece in question here would be the bling piece, text book mint look show piece in the middle up on my wall. Its nice to dream! Thing is I guess people may have questions to ask when it comes to selling this one day and I understand what you mean about not being satisfied until you have the best. Thing is though. This thing looks beautifull I think. I love the anodised scabbard.

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Always try and buy the best and you'll have far fewer problems moving it on as/when/if you have to (assuming you didn't pay the earth...).

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Don't buy $7.000 daggers until YOU know what YOU want.Don't wait for members to tell you what is OK and not OK,Myself I do not like cleaned daggers.Some members think cleaned daggers are OK,I don't. (I am not commenting on this M36 as being cleaned,but as a whole in the hobby ) Lastly an anodizied scabbard on an early M36 is a rare item.I would have to ask myself was it originally anodized or was it once painted?


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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My advice, if you really want a WOW centre piece, is to wait until you can find and afford a mint untouched one. It will take some time and will cost way more than what Paul is asking here, but you will be much happier knowing what you have.

And, in the long run, mint pieces will tend to be easier to sell and much more likely to appreciate than mediocre or refurbished pieces will.

However, one strategy that I have used (and I think a lot of others have as well) is to buy a lesser valued version of what I want until the better one comes along and use this lesser item as a trade in on the better piece. You can take this $7,000 dagger and, eventually, use it to upgrade to a $12,000 dagger. Of course, you will likely not get the full $7,000 back in trade (kinda like trading in your car on a newer or better one).

It is your choice, but this thing I know... you cannot go wrong in dealing with Paul at Lakesidetrader.

John


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I don't have a problem discussing reconditioned daggers in general, but I don't like the idea of pulling a specific dagger off of a respected dealers website for discussion. Paul is one of the few... very, very few... good guys in the hobby. he prides himself on full disclosure and that's just what he did in this case. Still, this thread has the feel that he's on the verge of being thrown under the bus. This particular dagger has now been sold for substantially less than the original asking price, most likely the result of this thread.

My point here really goes to WunderKind. Perhaps next time you could limit your question to simply the information contained in the second paragraph of your opening post. You'll get the same and perhaps more responses as seasoned collectors will feel more comfortable wading into the discussion... without having to throw someone under the bus. I hope you do not take this as a rant so much as a heads up for the future. Happy collecting.

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Originally Posted By: Skyline Drive
I don't have a problem discussing reconditioned daggers in general, but I don't like the idea of pulling a specific dagger off of a respected dealers website for discussion. Paul is one of the few... very, very few... good guys in the hobby. he prides himself on full disclosure and that's just what he did in this case. Still, this thread has the feel that he's on the verge of being thrown under the bus. This particular dagger has now been sold for substantially less than the original asking price, most likely the result of this thread.

My point here really goes to WunderKind. Perhaps next time you could limit your question to simply the information contained in the second paragraph of your opening post. You'll get the same and perhaps more responses as seasoned collectors will feel more comfortable wading into the discussion... without having to throw someone under the bus. I hope you do not take this as a rant so much as a heads up for the future. Happy collecting.
I do not see a problem about asking question's about anybodys items they have for sale.The fact that it should be painted instead of anodized was never mentioned,So you learned something not in the discription and it's a big deal.


"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it" Santayana
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I agree Skyline as this was the same point I had made on the Rohm forum and how quickly it is easy to forget. Manxman has not yet learned yet for the comments made,, it is very surprising coming from someone whose strengths are in Psychology.

Originally Posted By: Manxman
I work in psychology so should have better self control over my addictive and obsessive and impulsive tendencies!!!


Originally Posted By: JohnZ
you cannot go wrong in dealing with Paul at Lakesidetrader.


So true you cant go wrong.
Slow down and take it easy have fun with it.

Last edited by Siegfried B; 07/09/2011 05:45 PM.

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Jees....Sorry! I bought the dagger anyway. Without advice from experienced collectors I wouldn't have so I don't think Paul lost out as a result. The reduced price had nothing whatsoever to do with this thread. Its the 3rd piece I've bought from him in the last week. None of these purchases would have been made had I not been able to read a variety of opinions from experienced collectors first.

Last edited by Manxman; 07/09/2011 06:46 PM.
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The truth is there are more than a few daggers floating around that have been reconditioned or restored that few can tell work has been done on them. I have seen some on prominent dealers' sites that, to my eye, show some work has been done on them, but no mention of such is mentioned in the descriptions. As noted, some collectors prefer "untouched" examples, regardless of flaws, while others prefer nice cosmetics that present well. A matter of choice, really, that will likely continue into the future. There was a time when most collectors would have nothing to do with a dagger that was not "untouched." More and more, it seems, they seek those that present well. There just aren't that many really nice "untouched" daggers around for those who place a high priority on condition. Most really nice ones are held in collections, leaving mostly not-so-nice ones on the market. There are always exceptions, of course. Truly "minty" examples pop up now and then. The old saying that if you bought it, someone else will, too. Collectors' tastes and preferences vary widely and will continue to do so. Anyone who knows anything about Paul at Lakeside Trader knows he has an impeccable reputation for honesty and reasonableness. Since he clearly points out in his ad that the dagger here has been reconditioned, I see no harm or thoughtlessness in repeating what he has publicly stated. If anything, it is a testament to his integrity.

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BTW Its a nice looking dagger! :-)

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As a newcommer to the hobby its more than a little concerning that some suggest that specific pieces should not be discussed openly prior to purchase/ sale. If that is the culture of this hobby then no wonder there are evidently so many bad pieces and dodgy dealers around. Clearly a lack of openess and honesty combined with the frauds will ultimately put people like myself off getting involved and could eventually cause price dips. Open and honest people have nothing to fear other than differences in opinion and taste I would have thought. I am very new to this and these are just some initial observations. I understand that people might be reluctant to critique a specific piece if they have a business relationship with that items dealer. Anyway. The bottom line is that I was reassured by advice I got from here and elsewhere and purchased the item as a result. As stated. I would not have purchased it without such critiques. I am looking forward to receiving the piece and I am very happy indeed with the service I received from Paul. Thanks for your comments.

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As the Administrator of GDC, I can assure you that you can discuss specific items for sale as long as you say where they are. Our rules say that if you post pictures, you have to attribute the source. A few might be reluctant to critique specific items, but we have many less shy members.

You can also ask advice of members. I have fielded many many questions on SS/SA daggers and I am certain the moderators have done the same.

A few other thoughts

- Daggers do get broken or tarnish badly or rust. I think its a good thing to see them repaired and cleaned rather the leave them broken or to decompose. The links of the M1936 type II SS daggers are quite fragile and many have been re-soldered or replaced. Same applies to the early finishes on the scabbards of SS/SA/RAD EM daggers. They wore through with regular use or regular polishing with abrasive cleaners. A worn finish is one thing, but a largely missing finish going to rust is another. They key is to disclose this when selling.

- Some SS/SA dagger bits need preventive maintenance. The grip is wood and can dry out so a bit of wax or shoe polish does not go astray. Leather is worse as it can rot away. again, a bit of wax or shoe polish will help.

- Some collectors want SA/SS daggers never touched in 60 years with the nickel silver fitting all dull with green tinges and the SS vertical hangers full of green verdigris where they have been in contact with the nickel silver fittings. Or so covered in nicotine that everything is a dull brown. I think they believe that is proof that no one has ever taken the dagger apart. That is not true as those dagger can be taken apart without leaving marks. As for the green verdigris, it eats into the nickel silver. I have a very nice SS Schuttelhofer where this happened and I will try to get pictures.

- I would suggest taking your lead from museums. They repair and maintain so the artifacts are presentable. Not like new, but not like they were left to themselves either. Go visit the Imperial War Museum. laugh

Hope this helps,

Dave

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Thanks Dave.

It would seem to me to be an entirely healthy thing for collectors to openly critique items for sale from all dealers provided the dealers do not start posting false disparaging critiques of each other's stock. Knowing that their prices, honesty, knowledge etc is open to scrutiny should 'keep dealers on their toes' and help to prevent the hobby from becoming more full of fraudsters than it already is. If standards are allowed to slip and dishonesty becomes accepted practice, who will want to come and invest in the future? You guys would be left to swap items amongst yourselves and the value would decrease as new buyers would avoid the market.

The question of restoration is an interesting one with coherent arguments on either side. Certainly vintage cars are not left to decompose. I guess the dagger in question here tests the boundaries somewhat because a fundamental element of the original design appears to have been altered. Personally I prefer the anodised look to the painted. Any more opinions about this?


Last edited by Manxman; 07/09/2011 11:44 PM.
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I agree a nice "anodized" scabbard is most attractive. Unfortunately, the finish (actually a form of bluing)did not wear well and the clear lacquer did not adhere well to the blued finish. It is not easy to find a nice "anodized" scabbard, although they do exist. Some were so worn and oxidized, they were painted during the period to restore a nice appearance. I would prefer a nice blued finish, but I don't object to a nice painted one. They too, however, can show extensive age and wear. One must keep in mind the period in which the dagger was produced. The earlier scabbards have the blued finish, while most later ("RZM") scabbards originally came with a painted finish. There are exceptions, especially during the transitional period (1936-38, or so), where you might find a dagger with a scabbard finish and fittings that usually are seen from another period. Some collectors take a stricter view of what finish goes where than do some other collectors.

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The M36 that started this thread is a classic example of why daggers should not be restored.Please correct me if I am wrong.Early EM daggers had anodized scabbards,The latter RZM had painted scabbards. The early solid nickel type II chained SS daggers were painted the latter RZM were anodized scabbards.Why this is the case I do not know. If the scabbard was not restored there is an extremly good chance that the center scabbard band could be lowered and paint or anodization would remain.If anodization remained we could say look this is an extremly rare dagger because of the foregoing comments.Now we will never know because it has been restored.For historical accuracy it would be better if it had 10% of its original anodization instead of 100% restoration to look pretty

Last edited by zorro; 07/10/2011 01:00 AM.

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zorro... If you believe in Wittmann's work, "The majority of early, initial production Model 1936 chained daggers were produced with a black painted scabbard shell...". (Page 123, bottom paragraph). That means that some were anodized... Also, later chained SS daggers are not typically referred to as "RZM" chained daggers.

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There is only one bible to me and Wittmann did not write it.As far as not calling them RZM,I do because that was their time frame and if you like you can call them that also.Tell me where I can see a few pictures of early chained ss with nickel fittings that are anodized,should be some in his book,can't wait.Is'nt that book Wittmann wrote the same one he says the Helbig made daggers are original.You always pick apart everybodys nomenclature,for what reason I have no idea.I do feel alfull with all the problems in the world,legal system,floods,fire, war,tornados,that I could be responsible for a dealer having to take less than he was asking for an item he was selling,to think I maybe responsible for him making a sale.The horrow.P.S on page 143 of Wittmanns book he says after 1937 the model 1936 went to standardization under the RZM,you might want to straighten him out on that.

Last edited by zorro; 07/10/2011 03:24 AM.

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All I can say is... put down the the bottle of Jack Daniels and back away slowly... grin grin crazy

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The only "chained" daggers I'm aware of that had "anodized" scabbards exclusively are the "Type I" examples. There certainly could be exceptions. Many were period repainted because, as previously noted, the finish was not durable and many began to look shabby, depending upon wear, expose, etc. There have been many errors in trying to "compartmentalize" TR edged weapons to "textbook" standards. Exceptions do occur. They may be very rare, but they exist. Most collectors feel more confident with "textbook" examples and rightfully so. However, "legitimate" anomalies occur and each collector must decide on his own whether to add one or more to his collection. Restoring "anodizing" is more complicated and costly than painting or repainting. Most "re-anodized" scabbards I've seen do not look that great. In most cases a paint or repaint job yields better results. Only the restorer knows what the story is on the dagger under discussion.

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Grumpy... with all due respect there are MANY examples of Type I chained daggers having original painted scabbards. Here's one from Brian Maederer's website: http://www.militarycollectiblesinc.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=14_176&products_id=4216

Last edited by Skyline Drive; 07/10/2011 04:10 AM.
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No offense taken. I certainly haven't seen it all, but only recall the Type I's with blued scabbards. Looking at the photos it is hard to tell whether the paint on the one you mention is factory done or a period repaint. If you look below the center band, it appears it has been moved or removed where the paint is missing. Like I said, there are always exceptions and anomalies.

Last edited by Grumpy; 07/10/2011 05:29 AM.
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Okay, let me back up a little. What I was trying to say is Type I scabbards that are blued are seen mostly on Type I scabbards. I don't doubt some Type I's were originally painted, but, sad to say for me, I have not personally seen one. That is meaningless. Type I chains are always plated, not solid nickel-silver. Could there be an exception? Absolutely, but it's hiding somewhere. For quite a while, it was said the "anodized" center scabbard bands always have two attachment screws and painted scabbards have but one. The theory was the "anodizing" did not "grip" the band sufficiently, while the paint did. Original examples have demonstrated such is not always the case, but generally is.

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This discussion is way beyond me, but if its worth anything, Angolia's 1971 book states, page 63 (somewhat inconclusively/ imprecisely perhaps) regarding the new M36;

"The dagger was basically the same as its predecessor, with the exception of the addition of a double chain suspension band. Fittings of the dagger were initially nickle-silver and later, nickle plated, zinc die casting. The externally mounted scabbard fittings were first nickle-silver which were later changed to nickel plated steel. The scabbard body was finished in a blue oxide or black paint. The centre scabbard band was designed with a series of of linked swastikas"

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Grumpy... painted Type I chained scabbards are more than just an anomaly. I have photos of some in my archives and one is also shown on page 131 of Wittmann's book. Like zorro, I don't consider his book to be a "bible" as some have characterized it, but it is a useful reference.

The dagger discussed in the opening post has now been sold, so I will comment on it. Unlike painted Type I chained scabbards, an "anodized" or blued scabbard mated to an early Type II chain assembly is truly an anomaly if it is original. (See Tim, we agree again!) Even if it is original, it will be very difficult to sell. Unless you own a very advanced collection, few collectors want one-off examples. They want what is accepted as the typical configuration.

Last edited by Skyline Drive; 07/10/2011 05:43 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Manxman
This discussion is way beyond me, but if its worth anything, Angolia's 1971 book states, page 63 (somewhat inconclusively/ imprecisely perhaps) regarding the new M36;


Hang in there Manxman for someone new to the hobby you are doing very well and very well versed in this subject. Regards Larry

Last edited by Siegfried B; 07/10/2011 06:40 PM.

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Am I missing something, or is this the same configuration for sale on another major dealer site?

"Type 2 variety chain with a lot of burnishing still to skulls and the background. Scabbard has virtually all of its anodization. No damage to the ball. All screws intact. Superb collectible condition. Blade is absolutely stunning with all cross grain and darkening to motto. Would be extremely hard to upgrade. Grip shows minimal wear. There is one small chip at the upper right hand section. No damage to the runics or to the eagle. Plating is extremely nice on the cross guards and would rate mint (-). "

It looks the same with the central ramp having 2 screws etc?

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Yes you're missing something. There are basically three periods of production for Type II chained daggers... early, mid period and late. Only the early production daggers have solid nickel fittings on both the scabbard and the hilt, and also a solid nickel chain assembly. They also had painted scabbards. The later periods of production typically had anodized (blued) scabbards and plated fittings and a plated chain assembly. (There may be some mixed metal exceptions). The description you have provided above is not that of an early production dagger. It is a later plated model with a blued scabbard.

Last edited by Skyline Drive; 07/11/2011 12:04 AM.
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I don't feel as if I have said anything that was inappropriate, didn't mean to slander Paul's dagger just tell it like it is. Its naturally true that the market for a reconditioned dagger of any type is going to be smaller and that this piece is not textbook with the anodized/blued scabbard. and I think its quite easy to say that a painted scabbard/all nickel m36 will always be more desirable than any other configuration...


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I'll second the statement that Lakeside Trader is a reputable, reasonable, honest person to deal with. I also don't think there's anything wrong with starting a discussion before buying, especially for the "newer" collector.


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I am very very happy indeed with the service and the daggers I got from Lakeside Trader, and that was never the issue being discussed here as I had already established that he is a very credible and honest dealer. Out of interest and in an attempt to resolve the debate which has occured here (with regards to a M-36 with solid nickel-silver fittings throughout including a type II chain with a blued/ anodized scabbard), I spoke to both Tom Wittmann and Tom Johnson. Both stated very clearly that daggers were produced with the configuration seen here.

Infact if you look at the chained SS daggers currently on Johnson's site, in the description of four of those daggers he includes the following quote; " As stated on pages 28 - 31 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Volume V, 1936 Chained SS daggers produced during the 1936-1937 period can be found with a combination of nickel-silver & plated fittings, anodized & painted scabbards, and Type I & Type II chain hangers. This example exhibits some of the above variations".


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Manxman... no need to try and justify your new dagger if you are happy with it. As previously stated, it may indeed be an original, albeit reconditioned configuration.

But your question was "Would Reconditioned early 36 be difficult to sell". As previously stated, if it is original and it had not been reblued, it would be a difficult piece for an individual collector to sell. Now that it has been reblued, it becomes almost impossible to prove its originality, and that makes it VERY difficult to sell. That's my opinion. I'll wager that it's the same opinion of most collectors. You may get a different opinion from a dealer because they may have a different agenda. If an atypical piece lands in their inventory they still have to move it.

One of the hard lessons to learn in this hobby is that there are certain attributes of a piece (daggers, medals, uniforms, etc.) that are generally accepted as typical. These items are marketable. If a piece does not have the generally accepted attributes, its authenticity becomes suspect EVEN IF IT IS 100% ORIGINAL, and it becomes less marketable.

The best advice for a new collector is to learn what is generally accepted as original before making a purchase. If you eventually get comfortable with that, then you will be able to purchase something that is not typical with eyes wide open.

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Agree completely.If you want to be able to sell originality can be meaningless.....

Also, like Skyline said, you asked if it would be difficult to sell this if the time came, and while daggers in this configuration may have existed and even if this was originally blued, My point was that reconditioned + the less desirable configuration would make resale more difficult than a type II all nickel, unmakred, painted piece say

Last edited by WunderKind; 07/16/2011 11:46 PM.

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I accept what you are saying and I'm hardly in a position to question it......However. From looking around it seems to me that the factors mentioned above are already priced into my original investment. In other words to buy a similar conditioned dagger in an entirely 'orthodox' configuration would have cost me considerably more. I wanted this piece more for the aesthetic/ iconic qualities rather than the historic value, (although obviously that is important too or would have bought a repro). My aim is to have a display cabinet on the wall with 3 SS in it. A partial Rohm, this chained one in the middle and in a few years from now a Himmler. The historic value is in the Rohm and Himmler. The aesthetic/ iconic in this.

Regarding reconditioning, I have items of furniture and some objects which have been in my family for 400 years. Whilst it is important to me that these daggers keep up with inflation over the next 10- 15 years and it would be nice to be able to sell them for a profit as and when necessary, there is a strong liklihood that these items and others I have bought over the years will be passed on to my children. I will pop my clogs one day and hopefully the kids/ grandchildren will come in my house and loot it of all my treasures before the government does (and without stabbing each other). If that is the case, I doubt in 50 to 100 years anyone will care or possibly even know that the dagger was reconditioned/ repainted. By then it will probably have a platina and daggers which have a platina now may be growing funghi by then! There are arguments to be had on both sides regarding reconditioning and as Dave said earlier, taking our lead from museums would seem sensible.

I suspect lots of you think I am either dumb or rich to have forked out a lot of money with little knowledge of the product. I have done this over the years with Indian sandstone statues, (from India....reproduction but still expensive works of art), gold and silver bullion coins, alpaca rugs from Peru and late period Chinese bronze vases. I have not lost money yet on anything except the stockmarket. My Father also bought a number of ceramic vases in the 50s for a few £ and one or 2 are now worth £thousands. He obviously had a good eye. I am buying these cause I think they are beautiful objects with a clear attachment to one of the most famous/ notorious periods in the history of mankind and consequently they will probably go up in the longterm, and in the meantime I get to own my own little museum which is what I would do if if really was rich! When people talk about who's the most influential person of the 20th cetury they usually come up with names like Bob Marley, JFK, MLK but infact it was quite obviously Hitler. this period of history is well documented and on film so will not be forgotten as quickly as some other periods.

I cannot possibly hope to learn everything there is to know about safely buying a german dagger. I would have to lock myself in a room for a year and only read this blog and the dagger books. Then I would have to spend another 2-3 years handling different daggers. I would love to do that but have other responsibilities. So whilst I confess that I jump in to things fast, my policy is to investigate the dealer as much as the product he sells. I cannot hope to be able to learn everything about daggers, and with respect I doubt most collectors can either, because only a dealer will get to handle enough of them to reach that level of knowledge. A collector I guess might handle 1000 daggers in 10 years, and a top dealer might I guess handle that many in 2 years? If you invest money in the stockmarket, you don't necessarily go and do degrees in economics, accountancy and business before going to the company and forensically examining their accounts prior to buying some shares. You find an investment company with a good track record, a good reputation, honesty and products which on the face of it seem good. Most investors only have a very basic understanding of what they are putting their money in. I'm better at investigating, (sussing out) people than daggers!

Back to this dagger. I am happy with what I have bought and 2 of the world's top experts and one of the world's top dealers says this configuration is legit. Tom and Tom didn't know I was considering buying a dagger until late in the conversation and so this wasn't a case of dealers helping out dealers... If it wasn't originally anodized, why would it have the 2 screw centre ramp? I have been told also that if it was originally painted, the paint would bubble up underneath the anodizing. I have been quoted several passages in several books which confirm the originality of pieces such as this and Johnson seems to be making a point by repeatedly stating it on his site. All these dealers have suggested that the 'purists' like rules about daggers, but that these rules didn't apply when a factory was waiting on an order of parts, but they had a batch of other parts sitting there ready to go. Why would someone doing a restoration anodize a painted scabbard when apparently it is more difficult and more expensive to do so and anyone who knows anything about daggers knows that fundamentally altering an original design aspect will reduce the value of the item? I am happy that this dagger probably left the factory looking much the way it does today. I am also happy that I got it at a significantly lower price than other comparible daggers because most collectors want to buy something more expensive with rust and dirt on it. The money saved on this maybe will go towards buying a nice untouched Himmler one day!

One more question. Is it worth paying for an authenticity certificate from Johnson or Wittmann, and are they generally recognised as the world's 2 top experts on German daggers? Are there any world recognised dagger authorities in Britain who might do certificates for me?


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L
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Manxman, what it all boils down to is that if YOU are happy then that's all that matters!

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Originally Posted By: manxman
One more question. Is it worth paying for an authenticity certificate from Johnson or Wittmann, and are they generally recognised as the world's 2 top experts on German daggers? Are there any world recognised dagger authorities in Britain who might do certificates for me?


I am a printer by trade, and I have a whole box of blank certificates if you want a few. IMO these are worthless. I can go outside right now and BBQ chicken in my backyard and put it in a KFC container. I could sell it as real it might taste different, but someone will buy it, because of the label.
If it would make you feel at ease, then you can get a certificate. It still doesnt prove anything.
You made a great point that in future years that no one would no the difference.....Except you because you bought it and then it would be your word against the next buyer and their questions pertaining to it. Sounds like a vicious cycle doesnt it? How would you prove,, or your childrens children prove the qualities in question. They cant prove it,, only you can because both Toms and many others including myself will be gone. It is up to you to pass on the knowledge as does Lakesidetrader , the 2 Toms and other dealer/ collectors.
In this subject knowledge goes alot further than just a piece of paper,,, as does a marriage certificate. Your marital relationship is between you your wife and God.....Paper does not hold you together.
I know what my strengths are in in this hobby and what my weaknesses are,, so I study as much on the latter more than i do on what i know. I sharpen what i already know.
Time ticks away and so does the small intricasies and by that time no one will be able to tell the difference between what is real and what is not.
again it is my opinion and some do have certificates,, but not necessary.
It is my hope that you will concentrate more on enjoying your recent acquisition and less time on being stressed. I understand your concerns and i would be the same way especially when purchasing something of great value. Life is too short, but enjoy the time now but what is happening right now with those you are talking and dealing with. Truly this period in History is very contraversial and collecting it adds to the magnitude. My hope one day soon is to acquire a chained SS, and probably from one of the above mentioned gents that you speak of, but i myself can not wait too long since some of the most knowledgeable ones will soon disappear and my faith in what is not my strength will be compromised. Now would be the best time with the ones who know who are already out here. I should take a leap of faith,, but not blindly without the guidance of those who know the subject. Best regards to you,,and enjoy the hobby. Larry


Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!

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