UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Rohm Dagger Forum How to spot genuine original Rohm inscription?

Please help! I'm new to this and want to buy one or two SS Daggers that stand out from the crowd and will have some potential to increase in value over a 20 year period.

I'm relying on the honesty and ability of some of the big name dealers to supply me with quality genuine daggers. I'm very close to making my first big purchase, a nice condition partial Rohm. However I am concerned that even if the inscription is genuine nobody will believe me when it comes to selling. I have been told that the only way to tell for sure is with a spectron micrometre or something??? How can you tell if an inscription is genuine.....or can't you? If you can't really tell for sure then surely the added historical and monetary value is debateable?

Infact, if the fakes can be so good that even honest experts can be fooled, given the cost and addictiveness of this, I wonder if it is a hobby I should get into.

It can be treacherous. The "Rohm" daggers were made by a number of makers. They have been faked and "Rohm" inscriptions have been added post-war to genuine daggers which make things even more trying. Most faked "Rohm" inscriptions are easy to spot. They do not match the originals when scrutinized. However, in the past few years, fake "Rohm" inscriptions are appearing that are virtually indistinguishable from originals. First, learn what an original looks like. There are photos in books, here and elsewhere of original etches. They are virtually identical regardless of maker, but may show tiny and insignificant differences. Do not consider a dagger that does not have the accepted features of an original. Second, look for age, the modern fakes usually have "minty" blades, but they can be artificially aged, showing wear and staining. Most experienced collectors can spot phony aging. Third, be aware that "Rohm" daggers are of early manufacture, with nickel-silver mountings throughout, including those on the scabbard. They may or may not have the owner's serial number stamped on the crossguards and/or scabbard fittings. Fourth, partial "Rohm's" sometimes have the signatures ground off to help hide imperfections in a bogus inscription. Fifth, scrutinize the trademark on the blade. It should conform to accepted trademarks of attributed makers. Some makers used special trademarks for the "Rohm" examples only. The placement of the trademark is important for some makers. Sixth, don't concentrate so much on the blade that you don't check out the grip, crossguards and scabbard for authenticity. Seventh, before making such a heavy investment, have the dagger checked by someone knowledgeable of "Rohm's." Insist on a return privilege before purchasing, regardless of the seller. Buy from a reputable dealer or collector, if possible. If you can, obtain detailed and numerous photos, especially of the inscription, prior to buying and show them to a trusted and knowledgeable source for his opinion. Displaying the photos on this site is free and you will get opinions from some of the most knowledgeable collectors around. Eighth, don't buy or collect with investment opportunity as your main goal. All markets rise and fall and there is no way to predict what the market will be in twenty years. Right now,it is pretty stagnant, compared to a few years ago when German collectibles were "hot." Collect primarily for the enjoyment, while keeping in mind the financial aspect.

Grumpy.......I very much appreciate your detailed advice. I think the piece is almost certainly genuine. Its coming from Paul/ Lakeside trader whom I understand has a very good reputation so I am putting my trust in him. I am aware that daggers are unlikely to ever be the best investment and I am interested in buying primarily for my own historical interest and love of fine objects. As a complete 'newbie' to this the only thing which makes me question the dagger is that the Rohm inscription appears somewhat darker than the Deutchland inscription on the other side. Also the handle looks pretty mint but the scabbard looks in poor condition. In many ways my query is more to do with possible resale problems as people may not believe me that the inscription is genuine. As stated, I think I can trust Paul's judgement. Please have a look and let me know what you think including the price. This is a lot of money to me and I will try to buy in the next 24 hrs if possible. I very much appreciate your time and trouble.

http://www.lakesidetrader.com/pics/Ss-259d.jpg

I'm bought so many daggers and knives from Paul,and allways without problems.
Paul is one off the best guys in business.
You can trust him for 100%.

Thanks Stingray. I don't doubt Paul in any way and don't doubt this dagger. As someone just getting into this however it does concern me to find that some fakes are so good even the experts can be fooled. Therefore even if you have a genuine piece, its potential value is diminished somewhat by the fact that many potential buyers will be put off collecting as the line between genuine and fake becomes blurred. As my first big spend, might I be better going for a regular SS?

Any comments on the condition or price of this particular dagger anyone?

http://www.lakesidetrader.com/pics/Ss-259d.jpg

These type of daggers are priced accordingly to the market,condition and rarity/ desirability. I myself can guarantee you that your transaction with Paul, when everything is said and done will be very satisfying. I have dealt with him many times and never once have I been disappointed.
IMO playing it safe by purchasing a "regular SS" is no different than purchasing a Rohm SS, The only tool that is helpful in purchasing anything is study. There are 2 great reference books out that covers SS daggers. One by Thomas Wittmann
http://www.wwiidaggers.com/
and the other one by Ralf Siegert. But unfortunately his reference books sold out quickly.
My suggestion for future reference as you begin this journey into collecting is to study more, and view photos on this site for comparison.
Grumpy states the truth in detail that there are slight similarities between makers. The more you study and interact with members the less apprehensive you will feel before mentioning someone by name. If you are in a "Rush" to buy,, and nothing else? you came to the wrong place.
There are alot of great and knowledgeable people on here who specialize just in SS daggers! If you want to get into this hobby start reading the posts on this forum.
Take your time, and study. There is alot to learn about The SS dagger itself. Regards Larry

Thanks Larry.....Yes you have detected my haste. I will be investing in Wittmann's book soon. I just want to get one 'top of the range' piece in first so I can gloat over it. I keep thinking that if I miss my chance it wont come along again, but I'm starting to see there are lots of nice bits and pieces out there. If I miss one, I guess another will come along. Once I have something nice I can start to relax, read and maybe even sleep again! I work in psychology so should have better self control over my addictive and obsessive and impulsive tendencies!!!

Don't rush in, do your research and ask questions and wait until the right piece comes along.

Thanks for that advice. One person who told me to stay clear of Rohms was trying to sell me another dagger and the other is a very experienced dealer in militaria but would not claim to be the worlds greatest expert on daggers. I have agreed a sale with Paul this morning and payment will be on its way as soon as I decide whether or not I can resist one more piece! Think I need to calm down and get some rest now. Thanks for all your help and advice. Probably would not have made the purchase without it.

Pat, I must respectfully disagree that there are no "Rohm" fakes that cannot be distinguished from the real thing, at least as it applies to the "Rohm" inscription. Not only have I seen one, but I owned one. For reasons other than the inscription, I suspected it was bogus, but the inscription was dead on. I sent it to a very well-known dealer/collector/author, who said the blade looked "right," but there were other aspects he questioned, as did I. The blade was of high quality and bore a "Hammesfahr" trademark. The workmanship was impeccable. The motto matched that for known authentic "Hammesfahr's." As to the blade itself, it had a very light grayish tinge you don't see on originals and was in near "mint" condition. That was one of my concerns. There was a variation to the trademark that you had to look for, but it was there and varied slightly from authentic trademarks by that maker. The grip was real and the embellished crossguards were likely postwar, or at least the embellishment was. The scabbard was leather-covered. Not to offend anyone, but I suspect the dagger came out of Eastern Europe. It was purchased as a reproduction and I sold it as such. I have never seen another like it or close to it. I only hope there are no others out there. In any case, as rare as they seem to be, collectors need to be aware at least one is floating around.

Hi Grumpy,

I'm yet to see the perfect fake but I never say never, any pictures of the Hammesfahr Rohm dagger by any chance ?
I have heard over the years about people having a nearly perfect fake and yet, I was never convinced by one.

I don't want to sound pretentious but I would love to see one at last, just one so that I can shut up once and for all.

If you look for an investment, go for early SS, as the SS daggers are much easier to sell than full Röhm (unless you're a top shelf dealer with untarnished reputation), at least from my experience and watching the market.
I don't want to make a big analysis here why it's like that, but it's just a way it is.
From a strictly collector's point of view, the full Röhm daggers have much more historical value than regular daggers, SS or SA.
If you'll decide to go for a Röhm, be sure to get full authenticity paperwork from the seller, no need to mention the seller's name must be well known in the hobby.
And what is most important, take your time and educate yourself in the subject first. It always pays. Good luck.

Pat, you are right. The dagger I described was not a perfect fake, for the reasons noted. However, the main concern was over the inscription and motto. As stated, they were frightfully on target. Had the dagger had standard crossguards and scabbard, the rig could easily be taken for real. Really, the "flags" on the blade were the slightly gray tone, not the gray you see on early repro's, but a very subtle one. That and the error in the trademark were the big tip-off's, but even they were a bit nagging. I was surprised when the gentleman I sent the dagger to said the blade looks right. I guess I was more skeptical and repeatedly examined it until I knew it was fake. I don't think I have photos. If I do, they are on another computer. If I find them, I'll post them here.

Sorry, no photos found.