UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum '36s Gau'd and Why?

There is a nice transitional SS Dagger on ebay right now and it to has gau stamped lower crossguards. and it all looks original to me, check it out ebay item # 120597774730 sorry i dont know how to just post the link for you.

Hello Again Karin!!
Jim Atwood had long since passed away, and the one name (as well as another indirectly) were in a later time frame. And as was described earlier in motel buys, and items I�ve seen myself from veterans, they did all sorts of things that might not make sense now. But at the time must have seemed to be a good idea to them - using whatever resources they had available. Best Regards, Fred

Hi Fred!

The "motelbusiness", YES, I think I remember reading about that somewhere else? Gonna find that discussion! Thank you once again for hints ... Im beginning to see "naming conventions"? Makes it eazier to understand some more inside talks

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

This came direct from a vets estate. Must be bad?

more

All fits like a glove!

photos

Again, a type I with Gau marks. And this one from a vet's estate. And a beauty at that.

If this is a parts piece, I'll eat it.

Would anyone be 100% happy with this type of grip fit ? C'mon !

It wouldn't be for my collection, whether it be vet purchased or not !

Patrice I know what you are saying but they did come like this as well, at the end of the day they are simply a collection of parts put together. I bought a 36 from a surviving elderly SS guy who has owned it since the war. Absolutely mint and untouched, lovely patina, full burnishing and never been apart and the grip fit was far worse than this. Clearly the parts pieces share this characteristic but I think you need to look at the whole piece and make an opinion on them. As collectors its nice to tick all the boxes but anything hand made from parts has a degree of variation in it.

Personally I would not want a Gau marked 36 in my collection and would not buy one, but maybe if I bought one that looked and felt right from a vet or surviving SS guy it would change my views on it.

Look at the shocking fit on this 36 that came from the surviving SS guy. The top left and bottom right fits are awful! but the dagger is right.

Very very honest piece from original owner but what a terrible grip fit.

Mongobongo,

Very nice Chained SS and I love that patina but your grip fit is not all that bad either, it is actually much better than the one pictured here, to me there is no comparaison at all.

A natural product, not all woods/grips are completely equal. And because wood can change dimensionally with age through naturally occurring shrinkage, exposure to the elements, wear/use etc. it is a factor that has to be taken into account - and looked at it in the context of the piece.

With one of the earlier �veteran� Gau marked pieces the grip had been cut down (shortened) about 2 to 3 mm which was quite noticeable in the images (and was not something that was normally done in the factories that made them). With others, the contact areas between the crossguards and grip on some have been blended in to try and conceal chipping fractures.

As was pointed out the fit here is off, and what I seem to be seeing could be just a optical illusion. But with this dagger there is something in an area that would not be affected by shrinkage that seems that it may be out of place. Normally the contact areas of the grip have a convex curve that matches the crossguard. From the image here it seems that the center portion of the grip is possibly flattened - leaving a pair of wedge shaped overhangs at either end?? FP

It is very normal for any wooden grip to shrink over time but doubt if any grip, would actually expand as shown in the picture by the red arrows.
Pretty obvious to me that this grip has been temptered with and again, not conclusive of any proof on the infamous Gau marked SS Chained dagger.

The least amount of shrinkage that I have noticed on EM33 daggers were on Bokers.

Hi all, dear Fred, Sirs?

If I may? Could the "overhang" be from the filedaway/ground-off Gruppe Markierung? I dont see 1 on the fotos, but maybe the stamp is on the other side? In that case, sorry for interrupting ...

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

With items that came directly from veteran's, or from their estates (etc.) there is sometimes a presumption that the veteran never fooled around or did anything with his souvenirs. Sometimes that is true, which is why you see on the forums from time to time, the admonition from other collectors to leave an item alone and not clean it. But with other items it can be fairly obvious that someone at some point has done something. And if it truly never left the GI�s possession, the most logical choice IMO has to be the original owner.

Maybe it�s just the lighting. But in looking at the pictures again of this latest example, it appears to me that the upper scabbard mount to the left does not have the silver-white look of nickel plating as much as it does the silver-gray of polished steel. Perhaps some additional images will help correct this presumption - but this is what I seem to be seeing. If that is the case, possibly it was done at the same time that the grip was modified(?).

For comparison purposes here is a �Type I� cloverleaf showing the plating in four different states. Omitting the very highly polished steel that is seen with some of these daggers - that can sometimes be confused with plating (especially in some of the images with different lighting values).

This image I think should also give most observers who did not have one, an idea as to the actual thickness of the plating which was an earlier topic.

* As plated (in the recesses).
* As plated with (relatively) minimal polishing.
* Corrosion (rust) - mostly traces, which is what caused the nickel plating to lift/peel away.
* Bare steel with the rust removed.

FP

Karin, I understand your reasoning but don't think that it applies here. It's a little difficult to see, but on the backside of the crossguard there is what I believe is a "Westmark" SA Gau marking. Best Regards, Fred

Dear Fred, hi!

Thanks! I had a bit of a hunge something like that was on, but, I didnt see the Wm? And, well, I was too eager to know ... Sorry for the interruption!

Sincerely,
Karin-Renate

Pat, Not all SS dagger grips have a Boker fit. Heck even SA daggers have a wide range of fits. So the answer to the question is Yes I would be very happy. I have owned about 10 M36 SS daggers, 90 SA daggers, 12 SS EM daggers all had a wide range of fit. Heck just refer to Wittys SS book, he even brings up this very topic of grip fits and there are ALL kinds of grip fits. Just because the fit is not perfect does not mean it�s bad. Looks at SA high leaders daggers grip fits.....are they bad??????????????

Fred, your comment on the materials, SS M36 daggers used many combinations, photos never show all the details. In hand inspections are critical. FYI this is NOT my dagger, photos were sent to me from a fellow collector. SOOOO I have NO horse in this race.

I think too many collectors look & create problems that never existed. "Can't see the forest thru the trees" Do you REALLY think a German officer would care if there is a .05mm gap in the grip of his dagger? Give me a break! These were dress items, there is no real function.

What he said.

Collecting, for some, seems to have become a "micro-science." A dagger pops up and out come the micrometers. Is the grip gap a millimeter different than another? Does the gap between the blade and guard have a micron gap? Is the motto a 1/16th of an inch off center? Condemn them all! Gee, guys, these things weren't made to be perfect. Imperfect parts put together by imperfect mortals. Add time, age, storage and handling. "Gee, I don't like it because it ain't perfect." Let's "get real," folks. There are real, fake and parts daggers out there. Experience, research and learned opinions have pretty much sorted all of this out. Should a collector be cautious? Of course. But, to nitpick the insignificant can lead to a warped perception of what is authentic and what is not. Before you know it, there will be so much suspicion about daggers that it will lead to an unhealthy paranoia about them. Relax, stick to the basics and enjoy the hobby.

Well said Grumpy in the early 70s there suddenly were very good repro daggers around and I unwittingly bought a bad GO for $400 (a few weeks money then)so decided to move all fifty odd daggers on didn't lose on the deals but oh how I miss my $50 SS 33s $20 SAs etc
Higndsight is no substitute for paranoia should have just dumped the bad GO
As an aside didnt all our treasures start as a pile of parts on a dagger assembly bench???

A general unfocused paranoia is one thing, but a paranoia for cause IMO is not the same. There is some hard data that the Germans were fully aware of shrinkage and movement in drying wood (and had the tools to measure it - albeit more primitive than now). And with the different woods used in grips, I think that it�s fair to assume that from time to time there could be grips that exceeded the normal anticipated shrinkage ratios/movement. Especially with the later examples as substitutes were sought.

Where it gets a lot more problematic is with grips that were damaged by forced fitting. Here are two examples that are probably too far gone to try and compensate by either shortening the grip, or attempting to blend in the broken away areas. Fred

[quote=Fred Prinz - FP]A general unfocused paranoia is one thing, but a paranoia for cause IMO is not the same.

I can only approve with the above statement.

If a person feels happy with such a Gau marked Chained SS, that's just fine with me and I fully respect its decision, but it is also my privilege to disregard such a dagger.
In any case, I really don't understand as to why anyone would buy such a dagger when you can get a textbook M36 Chained SS without the Gau marked for the same price ? I just don't get it but again, I don't own one and I don't need to do any explanating to sell it. The burden of proof will always belong to the seller and nothing else.

Pat,

No one is disputing your right to buy whatever you want. However, some people take too much stock into what the "experts" say and will not touch anything that is not "blessed" by them.

What we are against is people labelling pre 1945 daggers as repros and parts when they are not. I faced the same criticism when I sold a nice Gau marked SS dagger that the "experts" you and I know, labelled as parts. Fortunately I did find someone who knew better and was able to sell it for top dollar. What we are trying to do is legitimize daggers that should not need legitimizing if common sense is used.

FP, The daggers you have posted can also be a result of people cranking down the tang nut too tight, thus causing the grip to "dig in" to the crossguard and a flake can occur on the surface. As the wood expands and contrast causing the brittle outside to give. Also I have a vet acquired Bertram Reinh, the grip as a gap due to being in a very dry environment (Arizona) the grip even warped a little. The grip contours fit perfectly and flush to the crossguards. Bet the Germans never thought what the wood would do after 70+ years in a hot dry environment. IMO the Gau marked SS daggers have gotten a bad rap, as time passes buy the �experts� will be forgotten and I am sure the next generation of collectors will not really care. How many time have collectors of TR items been mistaken??? Many years ago many Sr Collectors thought thought the unmarked M36 dagger blades were fake or some kind of replacement
due to missing makers marks! Collectors tend to over analyze relics, and come to some odd conclusions. Textbooks can be VERY wrong and ALWAYS contain mistakes! Also Textbooks can be re-written. Look a Angolas 1980's books, FULL of fakes being passed off as "real". Just becuase it in a book doesn't always make it good my friends!

same can be said about Atwood's book which IMO deliberately included his post war fabrications to give them credibility. At the time as a young collector I drooled over his Ss proto types one offs etc but would I buy one now if I had the chance knowing what it really was
Depending on price/condition the answer is probably yes cause his repro's are now collectable in their own right

As we look back from this point in time, the sad truth is that some books have been used as tools for selling not just outright fakes, but sometimes with altered "humped up" items as well.


While Arizona is a tad more severe, I�ve lived and worked in both Germany and the Southwest, with a large part of California being simply irrigated desert. At one time I was a fairly serious collector of rifles including the Mausers (German, CZ, and FN). Having rifles that spent a great deal of their time out in the elements ranging from Arctic conditions to the Equatorial jungle. So I think that I have some understanding of climactic changes as seen with a number of period items.

I�m going to try and keep this brief and simplistic, agreeing that too much force from the pommel nuts is what caused the wood to break off (shear) from the grips. But for far too many of these, it wasn�t simply from expansion and contraction. That�s because wood shrinks by a factor of 10 to 1 from the edges, as compared to top and bottom (lengthwise). And with wood that shrank 1/16, 1/8/, 3/16 inch (whatever) on the sides, the lengthwise portion is going to be 1/10 of that. Which is also why the many, many thousands of still well fitted political daggers don't have loose grips. And any corresponding expansion from the atmosphere (if it happens) is not nearly as dramatic as wood that has been immersed. There is more like the way the wood has broken off, and some other things, but as I said I�m trying to keep it brief and simple.

Here is another Gau marked �Type I� with multiple problems. It has gaps. Some big pieces are missing from where the top of the grip meets the crossguard. And it has an ill fitting metal to metal juncture where the crossguard meets the mouthpiece (and some other issues). Is this just another example of �natural forces at work� - or has someone been fooling around? Regards to All, Fred

Bumped. FP